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[ToonyMan]

@Toony: So just because Nerjin picked the team mentioned, why are you against it? Have you a deep enough read of him to validate 'scum' in your eyes?

1.  It was RNG'd
2.  A spy would be nuts to organize a team with no spies in it

Now an explanation on the picks. We have three of the newest, or perhaps the people who are...particularly unknown except for what they post - no meta, or much visible experience on this board. NQT has shown to be quite the logician, Ford with a mindset based partly on correlations, and Nerjin by his...how do I say...shifting wording? I mean, in his first posts, he goes aggressive at poking posts in an overt manner (this is wifom [post], no explanation given to support such), and then goes on along the probability train, ending up with a random team roll.
This may seem like a meta tell, but if a sabotage goes through, I believe it will be easier to see who is whom.

I don't really like this though, I'd much prefer if the team we organize we actually have fairly confident town reads instead of putting people with suspicions in there.  If I were you Tiruin I would put myself and two people I could see not being spies.  That way, if the mission fails you know that 1. it has to be one of those two (or both) and 2. you can now rethink the issue instead of just going "see one of them were spies!!!"

Unless you're a spy of course.

Also, a small hypothesis: 5 missions where one of them, the fourth, requires 2/3 to be scum to succeed and 1/3 to succeed (assuming they don't lay low). This is a non-NK game. We have 10 players. Assuming a 4/6 ratio (GG states generalities >_<), 4 - spy, 6 - town at best, 3/7 or even 5/5 at worst. The former is judged against the scumteam, and the latter against the town, but putting all pertinent probabilities in anyway.

There's 4 spies and 6 town.  GG has also said this, here.

[ToonyMan]

By "myself" I mean you, Tiruin for the second reply. 

[Dariush]

Dariush: Considering there's a 5/6 chance of him getting a team he would like, why would he need to manipulate the result?

As I said, it's mostly a gut feeling. 'Getting at least one spy on the team' may not be the goal for a variety or reasons, the simplest of which would be the desire to exclude people whose presence would like make the popular opinion swing against the team. Also, it's less than 5/6 (because the leader who is a spy cannot include himself, as that would instantly void the team), but that's beside the point.

What's your read of Tiruin?

On a scale of 0% for a mutant combination of Tolyk, Magma McFry, Darvi and Tolyk to 100% for myself squared with 50% being neutral, somewhere around 55%. He didn't do anything outstandingly scummy like contradicting his stated vote with his actual one and I can't see any... positive, for a lack of a better word, interactions with the people I currently suspect (Toony and LS).

PPE:

Nerjin, just go for that team. We'll only know it was a good one if it succeeds. (Besides, spraypainting isn't that hard, and your team has the smarts, the muscle and the heart to win!)

That right there. He doesn't seem all that worried about finding scum and even goes so far as to say so. Seems awfully suspicious to me. He'd have to do some SERIOUS convincing before I'd consider him for a team again.

Wait what. Why are you lambasting him for agreeing with your picks? Also, where does he say that he doesn't care about finding scum? I don't see it. Besides, what he says is actually true. There's indeed no way to actually learn someone's alignment (as opposed to wildly guess it based on his interactions) without sending them on a mission.

[zombie urist]

Toony: So, in general, are you for or against ppl including themselves in the team?

[Nerjin]

-Tiruin Explains his reason for his team.

I don't really like this though, I'd much prefer if the team we organize we actually have fairly confident town reads instead of putting people with suspicions in there.  If I were you Tiruin I would put myself [In a followup post he confirms he menas Tiruin, who is the team organizer] and two people I could see not being spies.  That way, if the mission fails you know that 1. it has to be one of those two (or both) and 2. you can now rethink the issue instead of just going "see one of them were spies!!!"

Unless you're a spy of course.

Nerjin
Dariush
Ford
Is who I'm thinking so far. Anyone have suggestions or reads on these people that would indicate I shouldn't take them?

Take yourself out and put someone else there.  I'm not voting in support with this group otherwise.  We should have a rule where the team organizer can not nominate themselves, this would put restrictions on the spy team, especially later in the game.  The freedom fighters do not suffer from this (unless we've confirmed every spy somehow and then this rule is silly, but then again the game would pretty much be decided).

This is an interesting change of heart. Care to explain?

PPE:

Nerjin, just go for that team. We'll only know it was a good one if it succeeds. (Besides, spraypainting isn't that hard, and your team has the smarts, the muscle and the heart to win!)

That right there. He doesn't seem all that worried about finding scum and even goes so far as to say so. Seems awfully suspicious to me. He'd have to do some SERIOUS convincing before I'd consider him for a team again.

Wait what. Why are you lambasting him for agreeing with your picks? Also, where does he say that he doesn't care about finding scum? I don't see it. Besides, what he says is actually true. There's indeed no way to actually learn someone's alignment (as opposed to wildly guess it based on his interactions) without sending them on a mission.

I'm just saying that I found it odd that he didn't even wait for interactions. Just said "Wing it." as opposed to getting some reactions, seeing interactions, and THEN agreeing to go for it. We need to have SOME interaction before we just leap into a team. Maybe I read it wrong, but it set off some alarms for me.

Toony: So, in general, are you for or against ppl including themselves in the team?

I can answer that for him. He's against it sometimes and other times no. Depends on whether he's picking the team or not or so it would appear.

[ToonyMan]

Toony: So, in general, are you for or against ppl including themselves in the team?

For.  I don't think I've changed my opinion on this since my "second" real post.

@Nerjin:
Fix your formatting and wait for me to post. 

[Nerjin]

Toony: So, in general, are you for or against ppl including themselves in the team?

For.  I don't think I've changed my opinion on this since my "second" real post.

@Nerjin:
Fix your formatting and wait for me to post. 

I'm willing to admit when I'm wrong. I apologize. The formatting thing... i always seem to have trouble with.

[Dariush]

I'm just saying that I found it odd that he didn't even wait for interactions. Just said "Wing it." as opposed to getting some reactions, seeing interactions, and THEN agreeing to go for it. We need to have SOME interaction before we just leap into a team. Maybe I read it wrong, but it set off some alarms for me.

What. What. WHAT. For fuck's fucking sake, you were the one who proposed a random team! Are you fucking kidding me?! How can you propose a random team and then consider people scummy for not 'waiting for SOME interaction before we just leap into a team'?!

Congratulations on pushing yourself from around 60% on my scale to 25% in two short lines. That's... an impressive feat, really.

[Toaster]

Tiruin:  Please tell me that's an error and those three are actually the list of people you'd never send on a mission.

In all seriousness, how is being sent on a team because they lack meta a good idea in any sense at all?  What are you smoking?

[Captain Ford]

Tiruin:

Tentative:
Nerjin
Captain Ford
notquitethere

I have to say that is one of the unlikeliest teams I expected to see at this stage of the game.

This may seem like a meta tell, but if a sabotage goes through, I believe it will be easier to see who is whom.

At this point, it occurs to me that the rebels on a team will be in the best position to identify the saboteurs. Given this thought, I'm opposed to this team on the basis that I'm already pretty certain NQT is a spy, and thus this team setup wouldn't give me any new information.

Personally, I would be okay with this team if you replaced NQT with Dariush. Although I don't know if it would be approved.

Also, a small hypothesis: 5 missions where one of them, the fourth, requires 2/3 to be scum to succeed and 1/3 to succeed (assuming they don't lay low). This is a non-NK game. We have 10 players. Assuming a 4/6 ratio (GG states generalities >_<), 4 - spy, 6 - town at best, 3/7 or even 5/5 at worst. The former is judged against the scumteam, and the latter against the town, but putting all pertinent probabilities in anyway.

I have to nitpick here. First of all, the fourth mission requires five members, so that would be 2/5 and 1/5.
That should be 4:6 or 4/10, not 4/6.
And the number of spies is exactly four, as already clarified.


Leafsnail:

Maybe you are stupid and don't read your role PM

I don't have a photographic memory, no. If you asked me my rolename in any other game (expect Paranormal) I'd have had to reread the PM. It just wasn't important to me in a game with a few (known) alignments.

This tactic strikes me as underhanded and unsporting. This is the first time I've been in a game where somebody's used rolenames like this, and considering I've played in every game that Nerjin has, I know it's his first time, too. The way BMs are setup downplays and actively discourages people from using these tactics, and also casts it as unsporting. Knowing that Nerjin is a man who believes in fair play (he's very strict about following the rules, as I recently found out), I'm not surprised in the least to see him completely blindsided by it, since he's been taught not to do it.

That doesn't change the fact that Nerjin completely missing the point of the line of questioning makes him scum.

Nerjin acknowledged that Toony was after role info here:

It is equally likely, if you'll indulge me, that I simply did not think the actual question you were asking was "What was the flavor you got in your role PM?" My apologies for not seeing this.

Which is his third post in the line of questioning. His first post was this one, so the only one you can be talking about is his second post.

In which case, notice the bolding. ToonyMan made the brilliant move of making a (completely whacko) assertion in the same paragraph as his roleclaim, completely discrediting himself and drawing the focus away from the part on which Nerjin is being judged.

Combine all the factors, and Nerjin never had a chance. His ignorance is anything but scummy. It's exactly as one would expect when the entire setup is closely examined.

Given your willingness to overlook Toony's errors and promote and defend a case that says nothing about a person's alignment, I'm calling you a spy, Leafsnail.


Nerjin: What is your rolename, anyway? Despite all the arguing, I never saw you mention it.

[Captain Ford]

EBWOP: I meant to include this part in the section to Leafsnail, but it got left out.

The rest of your stuff is just splitting hairs.

ToonyMan's entire argument is built upon splitting hairs.

The devil is in the details.

[Nerjin]

Resistance Organizer

Now can we please shut up about role names? It's incredibly unimportant.

[Leafsnail]

This tactic strikes me as underhanded and unsporting. This is the first time I've been in a game where somebody's used rolenames like this, and considering I've played in every game that Nerjin has, I know it's his first time, too. The way BMs are setup downplays and actively discourages people from using these tactics, and also casts it as unsporting. Knowing that Nerjin is a man who believes in fair play (he's very strict about following the rules, as I recently found out), I'm not surprised in the least to see him completely blindsided by it, since he's been taught not to do it.

I completely agree with all of this.  The rules should have prevented it (although the setup is so heavily scum-sided that eliminating one mafia member from the game may actually help balance it).

That doesn't mean he isn't scum, especially when

I'm a freedom fighter.

Resistance Organizer

[Nerjin]

At the time I was under the delusion that being an Organizer was a power role. Should've read more carefully.

PFP:

[Leafsnail]

Oh so you thought you had a hidden power role that was not mentioned in your PM, or the OP.  In spite of the fact that you clearly understand the mechanics of the game and read the OP.