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Author Topic: Working through Medieval stasis  (Read 31634 times)

wierd

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Re: Working through Medieval stasis
« Reply #225 on: February 14, 2013, 10:59:11 pm »

(Now quite, apparently. My position hasn't changed.)

It would depend on what's in the book...  if the book is on programming, it isn't far removed from formal logic.  For chip design, it would need to be rather encyclopedic, covering everything from EE basics, logic gate design, fundementals of chemistry, and the like...   if it was done in a very blunt, step-by-step fashion, it could convey enough information to get something like a 4 bit counter/multiplier made from large galium arsenide crystals built using lampwork torches and blown glassware.  From there its all practice and refinement though.

It would depend on the book.

Well, again, I think the only difference here is a difference of emphasis.

Books might help train the worker, but you need a worker with enough of that practice and enough of that refinement to actually make the minor iterative upgrades to the workshops that cumulatively enable better products over time.

You're just throwing the emphasis on the book, even while saying that it's practice and refinement that creates the actual change, while I'm saying it's practice and refinement that create the change, and books just help bridge the gap in practice sooner.  That's still basically the same argument.

The issue, is that it still points them in a direction they may not otherwise be disposed to.  Take for instance, what a very good chemistry workbook/textbook would do to a 3rd century alchemist, who thinks that gold has captured magical and metaphysical properties from the sun.

The straight forward student exercises, (and since it is a very good workbook, starts small, and chooses synthesis exercises that produce more sophisticated reagents used for later exercises, starting with only simple substances, such as producing hydrochloric acid from rock salt and rock sulfur, with a bottle of distilled water-- etc.), coupled with the no-nonsense, repeatable nature of the material would cut like a knife.

Either the alchemist would reject the instruction as "clearly wrong", or it would spark a radical departure from the conventional wisdom.

Don't underestimate the crazy power that a simple set of condensed facts and figures can have on an industry working without hard working knowledge. 

Again, I point out the noodle.  Before marco polo brought it back from asia, nobody west of the ural mountains had even the slightest inclination to try that.

A book simply showing people eating noodles as an illustration would captivate imaginations, and make people ask questions. That is a very subtle power that books can have to shape culture and the technologies they develop. Look at how many generations of tinkerers tried to build wings and fly, after reading the epic tale of daedalus, and the tradgic death of his son icarus.

Because they can influence a culture so profoundly, books should be treated also like a catalytic agent. They can forment radical changes in a society.
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Reelya

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Re: Working through Medieval stasis
« Reply #226 on: February 14, 2013, 11:16:18 pm »

The Marco Polo connection is apocryphal though, noodles are attested in the west at least several centuries before Marco Polo. The actual Marco Polo / China / Noodle story is relatively modern, and was spread specifically in the United States to promote pasta sales. (although, this rewriting of history for economic/political/cultural ends could be a source of drama in itself).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasta#History

Quote
A dictionary compiled by the 9th century Arab physician and lexicographer Isho bar Ali defines itriyya, the Arabic cognate, as string-like shapes made of semolina and dried before cooking. The geographical text of Muhammad al-Idrisi, compiled for the Norman King of Sicily Roger II in 1154 mentions itriyya manufactured and exported from Norman Sicily:[...]
According to historians like Charles Perry, the Arabs adapted noodles for long journeys in the 5th century, the first written record of dry pasta. Durum wheat was introduced by Libyan Arabs during their conquest of Sicily in the late 7th century. The dried pasta introduced was being produced in great quantities in Palermo at that time.

Quote
There is a legend of Marco Polo importing pasta from China which originated with the Macaroni Journal, published by an association of food industries with the goal of promoting the use of pasta in the United States. Marco Polo describes a food similar to "lagana" in his Travels.

...

to keep it on topic though, culinary arts is definitely somewhere the different races could get creative, maybe with a more elaborate cooking system and the idea of "recipes" a master chef could eventually invent his own dishes, which become a signature dish of the different fortresses and cultures (regional variations etc, different ingredients)
« Last Edit: February 15, 2013, 03:11:23 am by Reelya »
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wierd

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Re: Working through Medieval stasis
« Reply #227 on: February 14, 2013, 11:46:34 pm »

Intriguing..(was unaware of the propoganda machine influence. Again, the dangers of writing on infuencing cultures!) though I can definately see mid eastern cultures having noodles.

Amusingly, books on cookery compiled in the 12th, to 16th centuries are well known examples of regional culinary practices becoming more standardized, and shared between regions.

There are actually several well known examples of these ancient books on the subject available online.

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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Working through Medieval stasis
« Reply #228 on: February 15, 2013, 12:20:45 am »

A book simply showing people eating noodles as an illustration would captivate imaginations, and make people ask questions. That is a very subtle power that books can have to shape culture and the technologies they develop. Look at how many generations of tinkerers tried to build wings and fly, after reading the epic tale of daedalus, and the tradgic death of his son icarus.

Because they can influence a culture so profoundly, books should be treated also like a catalytic agent. They can forment radical changes in a society.

You're still thinking of this in terms of "invention", however.  You're thinking of these technology improvements as though they are fully-fledged ideas. 

To point back to the Edison debate earlier in the thread, Edison didn't "invent" the lightbulb, he took a device that over twenty other people had created patents over, and made moderate, iterative improvements that largely involved making the same thing someone else had made with more economical materials so that they could be mass-marketed.

A suit of Renaissance field plate mail wasn't just some idea that pops into someone's head fully-formed ex-nihilo or from a book, it's a matter of the refinement of armor making techniques from centuries of constant demand.  It's a refinement of tool and technique, alike. 

(And I'd actually like to see us start the game with scale mail and banded mail and then iterative versions of chain mail...)

Those times when someone has some revolutionary new paradigm that changes the world comes about are the anomaly - it's far more important to model the norm, the small, iterative changes that improve what already exists.

The things that come about by changes in paradigms - they are the things that players usually do, not the dwarves.  The players are the ones who create pump stacks or logic gates from fluid logic.  Those are new and revolutionary ideas. 

The things that involve building a slightly more energy-efficient kiln because you learn how to build a kiln with less gaps in the stones is a refinement, and that's the thing we are by-and-large talking about with this system - the refinement process, not the idea process.
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Boea

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Re: Working through Medieval stasis
« Reply #229 on: February 15, 2013, 12:30:52 am »

So I'm guessing these improved or supreme mechanisms can be a stand-in for better or more unique parts. [This lever may need a simple mechanism- aka a simple rope, joint, and cam in reality, but a simple rock run through the neighborhood machinist shop in DF as it is now - but this pump needs an improved mechanism- aka a set of gears and maybe a few wheels, as an example. Though this doesn't stop you from using better resource for less demanding product. ]
Brewery needing better cleaning for the barrels, nicer barrels, glass blocks [as an abstraction for tubes], etc etc.

When it comes to mythos, the dwarves can peg it on any arbitrary great invention, for all we can care, the gear/sprocket instead of the wheel, bronze instead of iron!

« Last Edit: February 15, 2013, 12:33:54 am by Boea »
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wierd

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Re: Working through Medieval stasis
« Reply #230 on: February 15, 2013, 12:33:17 am »

Of course the ideas are fully developed! It's advanced knowledge from before a collapse in civilization! (That *was* the current tangent. This is NOT ex-nihlio!)

The civ reading the book does not have the advantage of multiple sources. The technology *has* already been invented/discovered/implemented in the past.  It was lost, and now nobody thinks about things those ways.  The book does not need to qualify who, when, and where. Those places, people, and conditions are ancient history. It only needs to qualify what, and why.

The books existence will alter the otherwise normal development of this new culture. That is why a mechanism for its destruction is necessary.


I don't really get where you are getting the "ex nihlio" angle here.  It isn't "from nothing", if there was an advance culture, which penned the advanced iterative ideas down.  The ideas formed organically, and were condensed into the book.  Then they all died/vanished/whatevered, and took that knowledge with them. In the intervening space, a new culture rises from the ashes of the old. If the books are indestructible, they will significantly impact how that new culture develops.

« Last Edit: February 15, 2013, 12:41:29 am by wierd »
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Boea

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Re: Working through Medieval stasis
« Reply #231 on: February 15, 2013, 12:43:57 am »

You could argue Darwin made Modern Evolution Theory [he did not, his ideas were incomplete, but provided the major foundation] , or DaVinci did what, make the helicopter [again no]. The books can hold complete inventions, but again, what makes something complete now doesn't reflect what is complete later [DDOS vs Unix]; China's rediscovered Porcelain a lot of times, and sometimes even the porcelain that they made at one time [at peak] is worse than the porcelain made at the peak of the civilization in the last dynasty, even if they managed to dig up surviving record of porcelain making from the past, it may be a lack of resources [raw, fuel, tools/et al.] or simply a lack of skill or understanding on the part of the civ.

Books can exist, and affect civs down the line, but that is if someone takes the time to find the remaining copies deep within a ruins, circulated within a bandit or merchant camp, or simply some vague library. The rest is up to whether or not the discoverer cares, or is capable with what is currently available. Books aren't as heavy as I feel you think.

Kohaku believes ex nihilo, in part because I think that because it seems that 'x dwarf reads y book, and suddenly learns the secrets to reality, and food science,' can happen. Books, and ideas can be too far for a culture to grasp, philosophy-wise, or technology-wise, I can't make quality glass from reading about the tin float method or whatever, if there is no one with a tin float whatever out there, and I don't think a manual on how to use such a thing comes with a construction guide to make it too.
People can't suddenly jump progression completely just from reading a book, Japan [when under the dominion of the US] was able to because quite literally Europe, and the US was there toting the means, the materials, and what they need to make right in front of them.


[I hope I am using the scraps I read from earlier in this thread correctly]
« Last Edit: February 15, 2013, 12:51:49 am by Boea »
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wierd

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Re: Working through Medieval stasis
« Reply #232 on: February 15, 2013, 12:51:08 am »

Yes and no....

It depends on what kind of culture.  You are basing the assumption on one that is mostly illiterate, which is a faulted precondition.  True, in a mostly illiterate society, books are a curiosity, and little else. (Very few can actually read them, and those that do would tend to be estranged from the real engines behind the society in terms of arts and crafts. The craftsmen won't be the readers.

However, in a literate society, such books would be highly coveted, duplicated, and circulated.

Arguing that books are only curiosities, in a thread arguing against medieval stasis, seems kinda out of place, no?

As for "tin float method" as an example...

Given that this is a written medium, and thus essentially "like" a book in that respect,

"Due to the lower weight of molten glass, it will float on top of a pool of melted tin. If the glass is kept sufficiently hot, such as within a furnace built for this purpose (see figure X. And refer to chapter 10), the glass will spread across the surface, and flatten. The melting point of the tin is considerably lower than that of the glass, so that one may lower the temperature of the furnace, which will solidify the glass, but leave the tin molten. The glass can then be simply plucked from the top with a pair of tongs, and cleansed to remove any tin slag, or other defacing artifacts from the process. In this way, very smooth and very flat panes of glass with a consistently reliable thickness can be produced in large quantities."


In other words, a complete process, and logical reasonsing behind that process can be conveyed exclusively through a book. It DOES presuppose that glass working is a skill currently employed by the civ.  However, this could simply be at the levels the egyptians used to make faonce. (However you spell that..) being able to make actual PANES of glass, at all, would be seen as fantastic beyond reason!  You ca bet your butt they would try their hands at getting that processing themseves.

If they had not come into contact with said book, they would not have the benefit of the illustrations (fig X), nor the treatise on a commercial scale glass furnace (chapt 10), contained within the book.  A book contains much more than words. Even the achimedes palimpsest contained illustrations!
« Last Edit: February 15, 2013, 01:04:33 am by wierd »
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Boea

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Re: Working through Medieval stasis
« Reply #233 on: February 15, 2013, 12:57:28 am »

I didn't assume much, just that: the book survived an apparent and massive collapse meaning it is rare and is somewhere genuinely inconvenient [ruin/refugee or rogue camp/backwater library], and generally a book doesn't have a complete guide of how to intuitively progress from x technology that may or may not be lost, to y technology that is lost.

I can't learn how to do open body surgery from an anthropology of cows. [Okay, I know that cows live like this and that, but how does that make me versed in raising dogs, or cutting people open in a beneficial way]
I can't learn how to make an advanced kiln from an operation manual. [Thermometers what is that shit?]
I can't learn how to do calculus from a dense if I don't know algebra. or geometry. [I simply don't know how this shit works, I'm missing some major cornerstones to math]

And then there are language barriers, and societal barriers.

I wouldn't want to learn about organ transplant if I believe strongly in the sanctity of body purity, and cadavers. [I'm not introducing another's soul-flesh or lifeblood into my body, it's incompatible or sacrilege, it's like becoming less than a person, or eating the dead, those damn elves]
I wouldn't want to cross the ocean if it is expressly made forbidden, or impossible by cultural/societal forces. [Sea-goblins, damn mergoblinoids make it untenable, even if I made these "metal boats" I doubt they can float, and that they can last the mythological kraken either, can't tempt that shit, and point it in our direction]
I can't learn from a korean textbook, I don't know any languages even close to it. [What is this garbage]

etc etc
You aren't going to get to completely jump the system.
And I doubt a book from a ravage is going to be in good quality either.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2013, 01:10:45 am by Boea »
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wierd

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Re: Working through Medieval stasis
« Reply #234 on: February 15, 2013, 01:13:07 am »

At the risk of havng kotaku have an anurism, the condition of "coveted" + "rare/difficult to get" == worthy of being sought, just for retail value.

It would produce an industry specializing in the location, and appropriation of such items.

In our modern world, this takes the form of the black market antiquities scene, and in museums seeking to acquire new items for their cllections.  Authentic items would command a high price, so there would be a booming market for professional tombrobbers, and treasure hunters.

As such, simply because something is burried, or difficult to get to, does not mean it won't be aggressively looked for.

This is especially true if very profound artifacts, such as mood items, are indestructible, and due to their high intrinsic values as luxury goods alone, would likely find their ways out of the civ and into the surrounding regions before the collapse, where others could then find them, and use them as clues.

(You have any numbers of ways such items could wind up far from the sites of their creation. Kobold thieves, goblin invasions, being sold as trade goods, etc.)



The last bit you added, about books being in good order, is EXACTLY my point. Books currently don't degrade in game.

I was arguing that they need to, and why.  That was the whole point here! I want the books created to rot, and fall apart.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2013, 01:15:03 am by wierd »
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Boea

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Re: Working through Medieval stasis
« Reply #235 on: February 15, 2013, 01:28:49 am »

I didn't see much in terms of the degradation of the utility of the knowledge in the books as people split off, or backslide from the society it was created in, or about the completeness, and usefulness of the knowledge.

The last point was more or less an additional point.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2013, 01:33:42 am by Boea »
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wierd

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Re: Working through Medieval stasis
« Reply #236 on: February 15, 2013, 01:41:44 am »

Ok. Frame your position like this:

We have a super advanced culture, say like ours, in the midst of a world that is not nearly as advanced. We'l say this culture lacks the will, or manpower to be conquorers, so this culture doesn't dominate the planet.

Through some circumstance, it perishes, but before then it had many many centuries of productive and lucrative trade with its technologically inferior peers.  Trade goods are all over the place, showing that the "mythical land beyond the sea" or whatever was indeed a very real place.

Cut off from the trade with that nation, other satelite nations also crumble.

We now have a fallen civ with which to work.


In the aftermath, another civ which didn't fall, has discovered the value of hoarding knowledge the way Alexandria did.  They literally scour ships coming to port for books, and pay very handsome sums for books. Much of their populace is literate.

All the illiterate treasure hunter needs to know, is that the "magic kingdom" existed, (he has physical proof in his hands), and that they had books, (The trade good in his hand shows an image of Urist McWordsmith holding his book above his head.)  And that the antiquitis dealers of this new civ will pay ridiculous sums of money for said books.

He doesn't care a lick about what the book says.

He puts out his treasure hunting skills he has honed plying the trade, and builds up a narrative myth that would describe the lost nation's location, then embarks on the expedition.

He finds the lost civ, collects as many books as he can, and runs off with them to the literate civ that pays high prices.  His haul nets him a fine profit, he keeps his treasure trove's location a secret, and milks it for the rest of his life.

Meanwhile, the literate civ duplicates and proliferates the rare texts he brings in, and profits mightily from doing so.

Because the books don't degrade, and because both civs were literate, there will be lots of copies of books, laying around in the rubble.  What makes them valuable is their obscurity and thus rarity to the collecting civ.

The collecting civ is able to make use of the books, and wholly formed ideas stored in the books deeply color their civ.

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wierd

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Re: Working through Medieval stasis
« Reply #237 on: February 15, 2013, 01:52:28 am »

[If nothing else, you need to destroy the books because there will be multiple redundant copies of them everywhere in an advanced and literate civ, and they will just take over! Item clutter at its worst!]
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SirHoneyBadger

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On Reasons For Tool Refinement:
« Reply #238 on: February 15, 2013, 09:35:57 pm »

Once we get item wear, that by itself should open up a refinement of tools in a number of ways. Since the game track material properties in extreme detail, it only makes sense that you'll need harder tools to shape and sharpen harder materials.

To keep a knife sharp, you'll need a whetstone (a bag of sand also works), and also, ideally, some kind of oil or grease, preferrably fairly high grade mineral oil, if you want to keep from damaging the knife while sharpening it, and just keep an iron/steel knife from rusting. 

To sharpen a series of tools for a team of workers, though, a powered grindstone is more appropriate, because of the reduction in time involved, and also because of the unwieldiness of the axe.

Having tool maintenance be a normal part of work (work equalling here a series of jobs, like "cut down x number of trees until told otherwise), like food, water, and sleep, will add another aspect of Fortress management, but it's also something the computer can track by itself.

Dwarfs would visit the blade sharpening workshop, as part of their work-day, and the game would track the sharpness of their tools, in the same way it tracks how much alchohol a dwarf has had, lately, and then efficiency would be adjusted accordingly.

The job your dwarf performs with a tool that was sharpened immediately prior could be performed in, say, a third of the time. This would allow you to keep a set of razor-sharp tools ready for emergencies. The next 3 jobs--again, I'm just throwing out a reasonable number--would be done at normal efficiency, and then after that, job efficiency would be cut by half, and the tool might begin being damaged at twice the normal speed.

The jobs performed could be adjusted according to the hardness of the tool-material; but the harder the tool, the more time it takes to sharpen it, and the more specialized sharpener-workshops you would require.

I see sharpening-workshops (or whatever they'd be called) being only 1x2 buildings (one space for the grinder, one space for the dwarf), so they wouldn't take up a huge amount of space, and you could quickly set one up close to most job sites. Unlike food and drink, they might not use up any resources (they could, but this could also reasonably be hand-waved), so they should be fairly unobstructive.

In addition, dwarfs could carry whetstones, and there could also be larger, fully powered grindstones (powered by water, or dwarf-driven, or just hand-wave it with mechanisms, or whatever) that take up more room, but that can do the job much more quickly. You could have one or two of these set up in high-worker-traffic areas, like near dining halls, just to keep your workers at the top of their games.

There could even be a sharpening skill: This would be very appropriate, as sharpening takes skill, practice, focus, and consideration, in real life (I even sharpen my hoes and spades when I garden, and it makes a very noticeable difference in how easily they cut through just the soil itself). Practically every dwarf and practically everyone else would either use the skill on a regular basis (there are probably less skills that require or benefit from sharp tools, than ones that don't), or hire a specialis to do it for them (which was a real-life job that existed for hundreds of years, until the mass-production of cheap, high quality blades that stayed sharp enough, long enough, that noone minded too much just buying a new one when the old one got dull.).

In real life, infact, there are still a few Legendary sword-sharpeners who deal with maintaining katanas in Japan that are worth millions of dollars, and are considered national treasures--and the process of sharpening them is extremely specialized, to the point of being something of an art--and requiring exotic materials and practices.

Taking that to the next level: Not only sharpening, but the initial shaping of tools made from harder materials should require harder tools, and swords and other forged metal pieces, were regularly sawed, filed, and sanded to shape, after the initial forging.

To move on to other areas requiring more refined tools:

More complex mechanism should also be required for more complex tasks: Boulder traps might require the simplest ones, while weapon traps containing a full ten weapons should really need something special. I'm also modding crossbows and seige weapons to requre mechanisms, and I'm going to have a variety of mechanisms, and other related devices (like block-and-tackle rigs, and water clocks). 

More precise tools would be required to build these mechanisms, and should also be needed for magic-related tasks. Fail to inscribe a magic circle that conforms precisely to Pi, or whatever, and that Greater Daemon's gonna be laughing at you for a looooong time.

Other tasks that require high levels of precision are things like: manufacturing optics,
precise weighing (weighing coins for instance, as a part of determining the purity of the metal, but any merchant should have some interest in precision measurements),
earthquake detection (the ancient Chinese version),
loom manufacture, for advanced weaving,
creating alchemical tools (precise measurement again, but also the creation of things like complex valves, and complicated retorts, and precision grinding), and refining alchemical resources (mix too much sulfer or saltpeter into that charcoal, and instead of medicine, you might end up with an explosion or something!),
time-keeping (which can be applied to all sorts of tasks),
and the creation of fine musical instruments (particularly ones with lots of moving parts, like harpsichords, pipe-organs, hurdy-gurdys, what have you).


Concerning books.

I was going to use this suggested method exclusively for magic text, but it should work generically, as well:

Each skill could have books written on the subject, and these would be rated by Knowledge level, and Quality level.

Quality level would be how well written the book was; how accessible, how complete, interesting, and educational the subject matter therein.
Like anything else with quality levels, books would range from no quality (or tattered), up to Masterful (I'm going to disregard 'Artifact' as a quality level, just because it's not entirely accurate, and it complicates everything.).

Knowledge levels would range from Novice to High Master--Grand Master and Legendary would represent skill levels above what can be communicated through book-learning, while Dabbling just represents a dwarf that wants to learn, but hasn't achieved any real skill yet.

The Quality of a book would determine the maximum skill points that could be earned by a dwarf for reading it (regardless of how many times that dwarf read the book), modified heavily by a dwarf's reading ability.  The dwarf's Concentration would determine the percentage of total skill points a dwarf could pick up, with each reading.

The total skill-experience points a book would be able to bestow might be 50 skill points per Quality value modifier, plus 25 per Knowledge level (not including Dabbling), giving a 'Masterful Quality', 'High Master Knowledge' book a total of 900 skill points, or exactly half the experience necessary to reach Grand Master level.

This would be reduced by 50 skill points for every Reading level below Legendary+5, meaning that to get any benefit from reading the book, you would need a minimum Reading skill of Competent, and lower Quality books would be steadily more difficult to read.


The Quality level, starting at Well-crafted, would determine the total number of times a dwarf could re-read a book and get the desired benefit from it, although the act of reading a book with no Quality level would still raise the dwarf's reading skill, but would not contribute to gain in whatever skill the book was about.

Every level of the dwarf's Discipline, below Legendary+5, would reduce the skill gain by 5 percent per re-read, meaning that everyone with atleast Novice rating in Discipline could benefit from a single re-reading, but only those with Accomplished Discipline could re-read the book twice and still benefit, and it would take a Grand Master of Discipline to usefully reread a third time. However, the total re-reads allowed of even a Masterwork book would still only be 5--the maximum allowed even a Legendary+5 in Discipline.

This mechanism would keep players from cramming all their dwarfs into massive study-sessions, and would give Discipline a useful application outside of whatever military use it might find.

You could reduce this even further, by only allowing a book to be read a TOTAL number of times equal to it's value multiplier (so from 1 to 12 times), before it becomes illegible and unreadable by anyone. That would reduce the risk of "cram-sessions" even further, while making books that much more rare and valuable--and books were scarce, and extremely valuable, before the Gutenberg Press was invented, so mechanically enforcing a high value, and a certain delicacy, would be appropriate, as would giving strong incentives towards protecting and copying them (and enough expense and inconvenience to make it an appropriate challenge), for players who really do want to build a library.

To keep books from being lost in this fashion, and other ways (books could still wear out, or become damaged, reducing their Quality even without anyone reading them), you could allow limited copying of them by dwarfs with the Wordsmith skill, with the skill of the Wordsmith determining whether you have a perfect copy (equal in Quality, but never greater), or one of reduced Quality.

Even with the trouble of writing, reading, re-reading, protecting, and copying books, building up a decent library and promoting literacy among your dwarfs should have several concrete benefits, and might even be something that can affect diplomacy and trade, in certain subtle ways.

Ofcourse, having dwarfs who are as dumb as the stumps they resemble, and can't read their own names, might also arguably make a despotic dictator's job a little easier, so maybe the act of reading can occasionally cause unpredictable happy or unhappy thoughts, or even trigger Moods, so that you're still taking a few risks and chances.

I'm working on ideas for a magic system, and I'll be posting a thread sometime on books in general, and things like Occult Texts and Eldritch Tomes, in particular, to go along with it.




A suit of Renaissance field plate mail wasn't just some idea that pops into someone's head fully-formed ex-nihilo or from a book, it's a matter of the refinement of armor making techniques from centuries of constant demand.  It's a refinement of tool and technique, alike. 

(And I'd actually like to see us start the game with scale mail and banded mail and then iterative versions of chain mail...)


The best quality "scaled armour" generally speaking, was good enough that the societies that used it extensively didn't need to "advance" to plate armour. It's a nice example of parallel technologies, where there isn't only a single end-technology that everyone eventually hopes to get to.

Maille itself does this to a somewhat lesser extent, where efficient wire manufacture, combined with the best linkage patterns, and the best overall armour design, could produce a highly adaptable and adjustable product that was incorporated into many other high quality armours, and that by itself offered very substantial protection.

By the time plate armour reached it's zenith (arguably in Renaissance Maximilian armour), it was not only rare and extraordinarily expensive, it was also on it's way out.

It's pretty easy to claim that it did indeed offer complete and wonderful protection over every inch of the entire body, while allowing total, agile, freedom of movement, and as perfect weight-distribution as any body armour ever has.
However, this armour was rare, hideously expensive, each suit needed precise tailoring, and it was extremely difficult to dress one's self in without assistance. It also traded visibility for protection, and it was still heavy, stuffy, and prone to overheating and rust.

Scaled armour, or lamellar, on the other hand, was far more easily manufactured and fitted, was relatively light-weight, and offered a fairly high degree of protection against slashing or crushing attacks, and even arrows, that a single layer of chainmaille atleast couldn't match, even with padding. It also tended to appear in warmer climates than gothic plate or chain, and better compensated for temperature changes. Obviously, the total protective value couldn't compare a suit of full, total-skin-coverage plate designed specifically for an emperor, and it suffered maille's problems with weight-distribution (and wasn't as flexible or adaptable, either), but it may have been a slightly superior technology, if argued in holistic terms.

Laminar, a type of lamellar exemplified by the Lorica Segmentata of the Romans (and similar Japanese armours), could offer even more protection than scale against certain attacks, and was slightly more adaptable because of the more regular metal strips, instead of rounded scales, at the cost of either flexibility and weight, in the lorica segmentata, or (in the very best O-Yoroi or other Hon-Kozane Dou Japanese armours) great time and expense, comparable to gothic plate.

I'd personally like to see armour be a lot more fleshed out in the game.

« Last Edit: February 15, 2013, 10:48:58 pm by SirHoneyBadger »
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Working through Medieval stasis
« Reply #239 on: February 15, 2013, 09:41:44 pm »

Carp, SirHoneyBadger ninja'd me pretty massively - going to read and respond to his after posting.



I can't remember if I did this explanation earlier in this thread or not, but...

There is a difference between data, information, and a point of view.

Data is just a set of declarative statements.  Easy to convey, but which only reflect a state. (If X=0, then Y=0.  If X=2, then Y=4.) Data is almost never useful for anything but producing information. 

Information is a complete idea which allows one to make predictive statements about what state something else will be in.  (Y = X².) In the case of the example I just gave, you had to extrapolate the information (the formula for the graph) from two sets of data points, but if you'd extrapolated Y=2X, you'd be wrong, even though that would have been valid for the points given.

A philosophy, however, is something that enables you to collect information from data.  (It's learning Algebra enough to understand how to do that sort of math.)



And on the topic, the reason why Legends Mode is useless to almost every player?  It's all just a vast sea of useless data with no real way to turn it into information by the human eye.

There are programs that were made to turn the XML dump into actual information - showing, for example, where the most wars were fought through heat maps, so that, rather than having a giant list of wars you can search, you could just see that an overwhelming number of battles were fought between a goblin tower and elven civ, with the goblins mostly on the defensive, fighting at their own doorstep. 

The philosophy of a game - the ideas that drive its data and information - are its mechanics; The rules by which chunks of data collide, and which, by understanding the mechanics, you can understand how the game actually operates, and predict the game's actions.



The problem here, Wierd, is that you're accepting the information, but refusing to see the philosophy that creates it.

(Which is pretty ironic, because what you're arguing is that books will open up a philosophy that enables people to do things they otherwise couldn't just by exposing them to that philosophy without considering the philosophy being put out in opposition to that philosophy.)

You're operating from the point of view that "reading a book with instructions" = "capacity to do what that book says to the degree of proficiency that the book's author was capable of demonstrating".

Then, when I talk about concepts like microchips, or furnaces, you agree on the informational level - that it's a matter of refinement, but then still argue on the philosophical level that it's not the case.

The philosophy you are arguing is incongruent with the information you are using to prove it.

Your last few posts even helps prove the point about how limited a usefulness a book can even have - without the technology to actually understand or implement the philosophy, the book cannot convey useful information, much less the philosophy.  It's just junk data.

The philosophy of a book can only be taught to someone who was already close enough to understanding the contents of the book that it would have been possible for them to have understood it and "discovered" that technology/philosophy on their own, given some time.  Books are merely a training tool for getting the untrained of a given technological level up to the trained status of that civilization's tech level. 

A philosophy like Darwin's would have been useless in a culture like that of the Dark Ages - unaccepted.  It is even now accepted only where the culture leans towards those wanting a scientific philosophical explanation of life, and rejected by those wanting a religious philosophy.

Again - printing presses existed as far back as the very first form of writing in Mesopotamia, 5,000 BC.  They just never wanted to use them until they found the need for them.  It only took them a decade or two to create the Gutenburg Bible after the plague had wiped out the scribes.  They didn't adopt them because it would have put the scribes out of work.

Likewise, many "inventions" that could have saved huge amounts of labor were scrapped because it would have put people out of work, and they didn't know what to do with that excess labor.

You've already agreed to this as information, you're just arguing against it as a philosophy

What this game needs is a mechanic that represents and enforces in the player's mind the philosophy of what you already have understood and agreed to as information - that data or information gained by a book is only useful to a society that is capable of actually implementing the ideas, and would be, thus, at a technological level near that which it would be capable of "discovering" that technology, themselves, with a bit of experimentation. 

Hence, what I'm saying is that books are only good for training a person when that person is in a cultural mindset to accept that information, and incapable of training a whole society on how to accept or act upon that information.

So, societies have their own technological level for some individual industry.  This is determined by how much of that industry they actually use, and how much their workers are trained, which is in turn determined by the demand for that industry, whether internally or by trade. 

Instructional books have a technology level of their creator's society.  They are either incomprehensible, infeasible, or heretical to a society more than a few levels below their creator's society's tech level.  They are little more than historic novelties to a more advanced society.  They have a purpose only in instructing the untrained of someone from around their level of society's cultural technology understanding in how to be trained in that industry.

Thus, books can teach a person an idea, but not revolutionize the whole of society. 

For all the examples throughout history that has been thrown around, how many examples do you have of a lost book being found where the discovering culture suddenly leapt forward in understanding and science?  Not via importing the people and technology as well as ideas of the actual who already were that advanced, as the Japanese did with America or the Europeans did with the Arabs, but actually just read a book to gain all those things? 

For a society to gain in technology, the society needs to build up its infrastructure, dedicate itself culturally to the idea of wanting to change in that manner, and to have a demand for the fruits of that technological improvement. 

Even when it comes fast (as with Japan), it was still an iterative event, with the Japanese first importing technologically advanced tools, then learning how to build the most commonly broken parts of those tools so that they could just replace and cannibalize the broken machines they imported, then learning how to build the whole machine, themselves, and finally being capable of building a better machine, and exporting it back to the people they had learned the technology from in the first place.  That only came because they had actual uses for that technology, the cultural will to emulate it, and the capacity (via governmental subsidies) to build the infrastructure to build those machines, themselves. 

So, how do we model that in a game? 

We need to adopt the philosophy that says technology does not come through simply having one random person have a random new idea ex nihilo that creates a revolution throughout the whole society, or where an idea from a book recreates the whole of society, but a philosophy that says technology comes from the demand for the fruits of that technology.

Hence, if we are going to simulate that market-driven innovation and refinement, then the only way to produce that is to create that economic driver where a society produces more of a product (and puts more people to work, where they gain more skill in that industry, while also devoting more capital towards improving their industrial capacity) when they have actual demand for it. 

This build-up of industrial capacity and skilled labor, itself, then is the driver of technological progress.

Hence, the model I've been proposing: Demand drives industrial capacity and labor skills, which drive technological progress.

Books can only be a conveyor of ideas to individuals within a society that is already capable of holding those ideas because otherwise, the examples you keep pointing to would be wrong in the mechanics of the game.  If books convey whole inventions to societies that aren't capable of producing those inventions themselves, then any semi-literate early bronze age society would be capable of instantly leaping to the late iron age with a proper book.  You yourself have already said this is the wrong idea. 

You're just not accepting the philosophy of your own information.
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