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[Scoops Novel]

Toady stated in the latest Future of the Fortress reply that:

Quote from: LordBaal

    I always wondered if you ever thought of implementing a "research system", where some things became available as certain dates or entities invent/discover/develop them?


I don't think anything will happen with certain dates.  I don't have a specific objection to people discovering things, but it requires some kind of starting point, which I haven't really thought about.

We also know that he wants it to stay at 1450ish, though I'd like a clearer definition (no gunpowder or steampunk are definitive, however). Hence, i say we work through what the logical routes of progression are and were, specifically in worlds such as this. Discounting Magic for now, the races here have a distinct advantage, specifically that of having multiple races. What benefits could applying the strength of trolls have? Of Giants? Then we have our immortal races, who might be inclined to a little innovation, alongside impossibly honed skills, the possibility of aerial warfare, giant fauna (why not domesticate it?) a unique metal, and more potential ingredients/components then you can shake a stick at, though admittedly herbs still need to be worked in, as well as countless other things i haven't mentioned here.

If we're going to keep it at 1450ish tech, on this world, what would you have by 1450? More importantly, what would you have if you weren't human? I do suggest we pump a bit of research into what humans were planning though.

Edit: on the basis of discussion on the subject appearing in this thread and the suggestion of suchlike, i have created two threads in general discussion. One is a collection of sourced facts on DF races (sourcing which i expect to appear in further discource on this thread), and the other being on the psychology/nature vs nurture aspect.

Link to collection of information on races thread. http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122647.0

Link to psychology/nature vs nurture thread. http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?board=2.0

[GreatWyrmGold]

I believe that the "Limit of 1400's" is a limit of what we had in the 1400's, not a limit of what we could have had in the 1400's if we were dwarves or whatever. (Sociology is complex. The bit we're worried about here answers such questions as, Why did Australian Abigorigenies [which I know I misspelled, to the point that Spellcheck has no idea what I wanted to say] remain in the Stone Age despite abundant metal deposits? and Why did Europeans conquer America rather than the other way around? Needless to say, the differences between DF worlds are going to matter a LOT more than the differences between races.)

However, I do agree with the idea in general, with the caveat that technological development has been suggested in various forms in the past.

[CrzyMonkeyNinja]

You actually have some pretty crazy things in the 1400-1450 time period. For one thing, we do have gunpowder, especially if we are going all the way to 1450. Here is a link to a book written around that time by Hans Talhoffer http://www.kb.dk/da/nb/materialer/haandskrifter/HA/e-mss/thalhofer/thott-2_290.html. It shows some pretty modern looking things like the divers on page 90, or the tank on page 78. (You can jump to pages by clicking on the box that displays a number below the word "page" in the bottom left.) Now, most of these inventions were never actually built, but most historians agree that they would have been possible with 1400's technology. This last bit is sorta off-topic, but the illustrations of fighting techniques near the end perfectly illustrate what I hope the DF combat system can become.

[10ebbor10]

Just a note, 1450 is a rough guideline, not an exact one.

The point is that DF is a game set in a generic fantasy universe.

[weenog]

I would expect immortal races to be pretty useless for innovation, but culturally inclined to megaprojects and the skills commonly employed in megaconstructions.  Immortal races don't live under the constant threat of impending doom.  They lack that essential impetus to find ways to do things better and faster, and have more to lose from taking reckless risks trying to find a better way.  On the other hand, they're likely to still be around to appreciate and reap the benefits of an undertaking that requires decades or centuries to complete.  They're also probably more likely to do things by tradition, the way they've always been done, because they have the memories, not just vague stories distorted by multiple generations of retelling.

People who know they're dead in 40 years no matter how safe they play it, and have only the faintest idea of how things were even 200 years ago, are the ones more likely to be trying new methods and finding new solutions.

[Scoops Novel]

Just a note, 1450 is a rough guideline, not an exact one.

The point is that DF is a game set in a generic fantasy universe.

Still, I'd like to have a few 100 years of history not consist of engineers sitting on their asses. CrzyMonkeyNinja has the right idea, large amounts of progress should be new applications of existing techniques, new techniques being based on DF specific possibilities. GreatWyrmGold, i agree. Development should be based on environment and culture, with some natural advantages and disadvantages to specific races. Necessity is the mother of invention, and that should be reflected during play. At the very least, hydra burgers are a given.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I would expect immortal races to be pretty useless for innovation, but culturally inclined to megaprojects and the skills commonly employed in megaconstructions.  Immortal races don't live under the constant threat of impending doom.  They lack that essential impetus to find ways to do things better and faster, and have more to lose from taking reckless risks trying to find a better way.  On the other hand, they're likely to still be around to appreciate and reap the benefits of an undertaking that requires decades or centuries to complete.  They're also probably more likely to do things by tradition, the way they've always been done, because they have the memories, not just vague stories distorted by multiple generations of retelling.
People who know they're dead in 40 years no matter how safe they play it, and have only the faintest idea of how things were even 200 years ago, are the ones more likely to be trying new methods and finding new solutions.

If they can. Shorter lives means less time to do the innovations in. A race with maturity at age 6 and death by age 40 would have about 34 years, max, to innovate in; one with maturity at 30 and death by 200 would have 170. Those are 170 years of the best minds working, with five times the chance of any given pair of great minds living at the same time.

[Di]

I dunno, Egyptians managed to live through several thousand years without inventing anything that would change their lifestyle significantly. So did Romans.
And those times are sometimes called Dark Ages for a reason as well.

To me it seems that a research and progress could only be simulated by accumulation of knowledge about procedurally generated materials, plants and stuff, probably magic and potions as well.

[Beast Tamer]

Possibly, but the fact that you can stop world gen at year one, start your own fort, and know from the start how to smelt copper, iron, and steel when it took thousands of years of innovation to start with is rather grating.

Perhaps if this idea is implemented Toady can give the option for players to drive innovation forward? You know, to research and develop techniques for improving basic life?

[10ebbor10]

Possibly, but the fact that you can stop world gen at year one, start your own fort, and know from the start how to smelt copper, iron, and steel when it took thousands of years of innovation to start with is rather grating.

Perhaps if this idea is implemented Toady can give the option for players to drive innovation forward? You know, to research and develop techniques for improving basic life?

However, if you do implement this mechanic, it will be rather annoying for those with less powerfull computers who still want to start with the knowledge to do all those things, as they'll be forced to sit through a 1000 year worldgen.

((Oh, and year 0 is simply the beginning of worldgen, it's not nessecerially the case that there was nothing beforehand))

[Beast Tamer]

True, on both counts. Maybe they could implement an option in world gen for immediate tech superiority or tech advancements later along the line? Dwarf Fortress is all about what the player can do, wouldn't it be nice for the player to be the one behind many major advancements in a world?

[10ebbor10]

I quite agree that procedural advancements would be a good idea (we're working towards that actualy, see animal training and such), just warned for potential problems.

[CrzyMonkeyNinja]

-snip-
Egyptians managed to live through several thousand years without inventing anything that would change their lifestyle significantly.
So did Romans.
And those times are sometimes called Dark Ages for a reason as well.
-snip-

Au contraire mon frère, the Romans invented many things to make their lives easier. They had indoor plumbing and heating, concrete, public bathrooms with running water, fast food restaurants, apartment buildings, three story mall-like shopping centers, and highway-like bridges. Also, in Nero’s Domus Aurea there was a water-powered, rotating dining room. Keep in mind that, when Rome was founded, the people lived in mud huts by the river Tiber, by the time the first century A.D. came around, they lived in a city of marble. Also, the ancient times of Egypt, Greece and Rome are not called the Dark Ages; that is the period directly after barbarians caused the fall of the Western Roman Empire, when there weren’t any more public bathrooms with running water or indoor heating. I don't know much about the Egyptians, but I believe they were rather similar, but even EARLIER in history.

Well, now that I have my historical fact-check out of the way, I suppose I should talk about the suggestion. I do agree that needing to sit through a long world-gen to get the full experience would be tedious, but some tech advancement might be nice.

[Scoops Novel]

Agreed, though i like the idea of a little ancient history in a world gen (unless specified), if you dig deep enough, at least from pre-current civilizations, races and creatures  (someone had to forget the forgotten beasts) with associated filters. If you did start with peak technology, I'd like there to be some procedural reasons for it beyond the gods gave it to them, though that would be an option. Having races not being newly created in year one, rather now having attained that tech level, with the associated greater spread and ruins of such. A randomize everything button is essential for me, however.

[King Mir]

I think there are too many problems and game mechanics that would be compromised by adding tech advances.

How do you stop a year-0 fort from discovering everything there is to discover?

At the other end, you do want fort mode discoveries to be possible. You want play and world gen to allow the same stuff.

How do you make a game with less tech as feature-rich as one with all the tech? Tech ostensibly results in more things you can build and do, but then not having the tech would mean less features to play with. But then why would anyone want to play without the tech?

How do you make tech advances meaningful, instead of just being bonuses on existing technology? It's easy to make a tech for better steal, but that example doesn't do justice to the concept of invention.

How do you maintain the present system, where a less mature fort will have fewer industries, and a more mature fort is more advanced, regardless of the time period the fort was founded? Tech trees in other games compliment this system, but they generally do this by making all tech available for the largest sites. A more realistic representation of technology would not work this way.

I like the current DF system, where if you have the resources, and the dwarf hours, you can build it. Adding tech to the game could negatively compromise that system.