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Author Topic: Automatons - when !FUN! meets !!SCIENCE!! (also, a bit of magic) [LONG-ISH!]  (Read 2457 times)

Mesa

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First of all, this is a longer term idea, and might require mildly unrelated features to be made.
If nothing else, it's a potential modding content.

Also, I haven't played Fortress mode a lot, so please forgive me any mistakes I am inevitably going to make here.

Automatons - otherwise known as robots (and other similar terms) - before you start flaming me about adding technology to our lovely Dorf Fort, let me explain.
Those automatons are more related to magic than actual technology - they are only "skeletons" out of metal, cogs, levers, and clockwork-related stuff, but it's magic that makes them move. So bear me with me and enjoy this slightly controversial suggestion.

In essence, automatons are creatures that can be crafted - or found underground - by your lovely Urist DaVinci dwarves out of any kind of metal (well, that's the plan, but generally speaking you don't want to use stuff like gold or silver, but more like bronze and brass - but it's your call).
There are a few things that you need in order to be able to construct those machines:

Auxillarite - a sub-suggestion - when a creature, be it dwarf, dragon, or carp, dies, its soul is released, and will "flee" to the other world - (some creatures could capture or even entirely eat those souls, for some Fun effects).

Auxillarite is a magical gem that can capture souls within - with yet-undescribed mechanics, souls of still alive creatures can also be put within auxillarite crystals, albeit that's risky, since once captured in auxillarite, souls can't be put back into bodies (they can be transformed from a crystal to a crystal, though).
Auxillarite crystals come in various sizes - tiny, small, medium, large and huge - and they determine how powerful of a soul can be stored within them. (Soul's power is determined by the creature's soul attributes and also size of the creature to an extent).
Trying to capture a soul that's more powerful than a crystal one is trying to capture it into will cause the auxillarite to break and the soul to escape forever.
Regular (or blue) auxillarite is used as "brain" substitute for automatons - for instance, you can capture a dying noble's soul into a crystal and put it inside an automaton to prolong his life. More details below.

Red auxillarite - a slightly more common variety of auxillarite, which are used to give power to automatons, sort of like "hearts" or even batteries (or cores) by continuously draining off the power of the soul into the machinery. (Think batteries, but soul attributes are used instead of electricity). Souls still have to be captured within in order for them to function. They also come in 5 size varieties.

Mechanical parts - mildly miscellaneous, they include cogs, gears and springs - you can think of them as "muscles" for automatons.

Creature knowledge - this shouldn't really bother you unless you are going to be making non-dwarf automatons/making automatons with non-dwarf body parts[/u] (mildly a spoiler). (I am assuming animal training knowledge here, which is probably not a good thing to do - oh well.)

Mechatronics workshop - used to (de)construct Automatons and also used to give (I can't find a more proper word for it) your creatures (not just dwarves) automaton parts (think prosthesis, also, cyborgs ftw).

Once you have all of those, we can proceed to the fun stuff.
Implementing automatons would also require a new interface, due to a slightly complicated nature of making them.

First - with mechanical parts (and some more metal bars), you are able to create creature body parts at the metalsmith's forge - they include all regular and modded bodyparts, ranging from upper and lower bodies to wings, pincers and teeth (why would you want to make those is beyond me, unless, well, read below). You can also forge organs like lungs and the like, but they won't be functional, because, well, what's the point?
Also, weapons and tools are counted as bodyparts for that matter, so Urist Scissorhands is not out of the question. (note that they have to replace hands, so unless you are going to give your automatons multiple hands you leave them with one or even no way to grasp stuff with)

When you have created 2 pairs of limbs, upper and lower bodies and a head (that's the most basic combination - you can go ahead and try out some more crazy combos), you will have to arrange them using the following method:

There are two columns - left and right.
The left column contains bodyparts at your disposal to craft your automatons with.
The left column shows their arrangment.

It kinda works like containers, of sorts, where you can either put some parts "within" other parts (feet within legs, for instance). Well, it's just called connecting them, but whatever. You can't combine them in any way, though. (you can't attach wings to a head, for instance). You can, however, combine dwarf lower body with elephant legs, for instance. You get the idea.
You can have incomplete automatons, but they won't do you much good, if anything. You can leave them and come back later to finish, modify or deconstruct them.
Auxillarite (blue) crystals always go to the head (if there's one) while red auxillarite crystals are only attachable to the upper body (or something that has a similar function).

Once you have your first automaton ready, with limbs, body, two auxillarite crystals with soul(s) within, it will be able to function, move and use stuff. It's worth noting that your dwarves WILL loose their body-related skills (mining etc.) when they are put within an automaton, but soul skills are unaffected.
It is worth noting that automatons do NOT need a soul within a blue auxillarite crystal to function, but they won't gain skills or attributes.

Now, while automatons can be very different among themselves, there are a few features that are persistent between them:

They do not die of old age, they don't need to drink, eat, or sleep (and will not gain bad thoughts from them). They are able to enter strange moods, but only if there's have a humanoid soul in the blue auxillarite crystal. They won't go insane, though.
Automatons' skills and attributes do not rust, and they will be able to raise, only if there's a soul in the blue auxillarite crystal. (It doesn't need to be a dwarf or even a humanoid soul, though, but it's not really worth to have carps running around your fortress). Their bodyparts ARE affected by item qualities and they posses the same statistics as the material they're made of (so a silver hand will pack quite a punch, for example).


Automaton body parts can be decorated if you so desire. They can be decorated with pretty much everything, but they don't count as furniture, in case you're wondering. But if you plan to sell them (which is totally plausible, but the automaton has to be disabled when being sold).

Various automatons can be also found underground, and will come in a HUGE variety of...Varieties. (there could be also a half-random automaton generation). They may OR MAY NOT be disabled, which raises the Fun potential.
Automatons can be given various tools/weapons instead of certain bodyparts (mostly hands, but also arms as a whole, legs, and possibly even tails) and if plausible, they will gain skills from using them. (that means however they won't be able to drop them, but will be able to be removed and replaced at mechatronics workshop.

You can also attach automaton bodyparts to alive creatures (especially useful for those who lost their limbs in battle), and they will function exactly as they would for automatons.

With this system, you have effectively an in-game creature editor, albeit somewhat limited. (but hey, modding could make it that much more expandable) Create robotic armies of flying adamantine hydras (now features 14 heads!), assuming you can pay the bills. ;)
Also, don't forget Adventurer Mode possibilities. (I can't think of any atm, but it would surely also impact that one)

I hope I covered this slightly controversial topic the best I could and I hope that it will come to the game at one point or another, in some way, shape, or form.
(this is also pretty much a direct reference to Heavenly Forge from Might&Magic series)


« Last Edit: January 31, 2013, 03:18:08 pm by DarkDXZ »
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10ebbor10

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Re: Automatons - when !FUN! meets !!SCIENCE!! (also, a bit of magic)
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2013, 01:38:01 pm »

1. IIRC, the word android is derived from a "mythical" greek version of these, giving them a large time margin.

2. I'm not sure if you should be given so much control of the things in question. I would limit the creation options quite a bit more, or severly restrict the acces to the crystals. Or even make automaton construction an art that needs to be learned, like the animal training stuff.

Just a pro boni comparison:

Pro:
- No food/ No sleep/ No skill rusting/ No breaks 
- Fully custom and hence optimalisable
- No insanity/ mood problems

Contra:
- Metal cost
- Requires gems
- Requires dwarf or other souls

Now, we can clearly see that at this point the entire thing is largely unbalanced, though promising. The only limiting factor appears to be the gem requirement, unless the killing of dwarves for souls would evoke serious moral problems. Metal cost will be largely ignorable. Realistically, the metal cost of a RoboUrist won't be much more than the cost of a full suit of armour. Meaning that the gems will need to be rather rare, which sadly means that the system will see very little use for it's capabilities.


PN: You broke an italics tag.
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Mesa

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Re: Automatons - when !FUN! meets !!SCIENCE!! (also, a bit of magic)
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2013, 01:44:03 pm »

1. IIRC, the word android is derived from a "mythical" greek version of these, giving them a large time margin.

2. I'm not sure if you should be given so much control of the things in question. I would limit the creation options quite a bit more, or severly restrict the acces to the crystals. Or even make automaton construction an art that needs to be learned, like the animal training stuff.

Just a pro boni comparison:

Pro:
- No food/ No sleep/ No skill rusting/ No breaks 
- Fully custom and hence optimalisable
- No insanity/ mood problems

Contra:
- Metal cost
- Requires gems
- Requires dwarf or other souls

Now, we can clearly see that at this point the entire thing is largely unbalanced, though promising. The only limiting factor appears to be the gem requirement, unless the killing of dwarves for souls would evoke serious moral problems. Metal cost will be largely ignorable. Realistically, the metal cost of a RoboUrist won't be much more than the cost of a full suit of armour. Meaning that the gems will need to be rather rare, which sadly means that the system will see very little use for it's capabilities.


PN: You broke an italics tag.

Also, I was largely inspired by the aformentioned Heavenly Forge, but also the Dwemer race from The Elder Scrolls universe.
Which is to say, pretty coincidental, given that Dwemers were also techically dwarves.

Also, it would be kinda logical that killing of dwarves for souls would cause moral problems.
And another thing - you would have to meet a certain creature or even have its bodypart at the time in order to be able to produce a mechanical version of it.

Another thing - various bodyparts would require different amounts of metal - therefore, making Hydrabots would be a fairly costly thing to do.
And I'm too lazy to go there and fix the italics in that giant wall of text (I hope it's readable), so sorry for that. At least it's not bold, so...

EDIT:
Another important thing, only automatons that don't have a humanoid soul inside can't enter strange moods - MAYBE they should be still able to go insane, since that's related to their mind/soul, and not to their body - and boy, you better not be close when Urist Primarch goes nuts - those four hands with blades aren't toys, you know.

And as unlikely as it might sound, automatons can appear in armies during sieges, so be wary of that.
It's worth noting as well that those automatons tend to get pretty heavy - it's metal they're of after all.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2013, 01:52:17 pm by DarkDXZ »
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Avo

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Re: Automatons - when !FUN! meets !!SCIENCE!! (also, a bit of magic)
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2013, 02:26:41 pm »

The sizes don't really fit with our current system and would be frustrating at best in fortress mode, if your dwarves grabbed the wrong gem to go capture the bronze collosi's soul you really couldn't do a lot about it. An interesting addition may be to make the auxilerite be hidden inside the adamantine spires after all who would love the ability to hold souls more than demons?
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Mesa

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Re: Automatons - when !FUN! meets !!SCIENCE!! (also, a bit of magic)
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2013, 02:28:53 pm »

The sizes don't really fit with our current system and would be frustrating at best in fortress mode, if your dwarves grabbed the wrong gem to go capture the bronze collosi's soul you really couldn't do a lot about it. An interesting addition may be to make the auxilerite be hidden inside the adamantine spires after all who would love the ability to hold souls more than demons?

Well, technically, there could just be a small, normal (no prefix) and large gems.
Would that work better?

Also, good point about the crystals being in spires. Maybe they could even hold some souls of historical figures (sometimes, since demons would just eat the soul 5 out of 6 times)
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Mesa

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Re: Automatons - when !FUN! meets !!SCIENCE!! (also, a bit of magic)
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2013, 02:34:53 pm »

The sizes don't really fit with our current system and would be frustrating at best in fortress mode, if your dwarves grabbed the wrong gem to go capture the bronze collosi's soul you really couldn't do a lot about it. An interesting addition may be to make the auxilerite be hidden inside the adamantine spires after all who would love the ability to hold souls more than demons?

Besides, I don't think that bronze collosi have any souls to begin with.
(They could technically become giant automatons from later on - would that make sense? I think so.)
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10ebbor10

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The sizes don't really fit with our current system and would be frustrating at best in fortress mode, if your dwarves grabbed the wrong gem to go capture the bronze collosi's soul you really couldn't do a lot about it. An interesting addition may be to make the auxilerite be hidden inside the adamantine spires after all who would love the ability to hold souls more than demons?

Besides, I don't think that bronze collosi have any souls to begin with.
(They could technically become giant automatons from later on - would that make sense? I think so.)
Yeah, one of the original golem/automaton suggestions made the bronze collosi into the first of the golems. So you could learn the secret from them, as well as a variety of other ways.

As for the crystals, why not attach it to the current qualitiy modifier system. Each crystal has a based mined quality, is then cut (extra modifier), maybe adorned with the red crystals for extra power and then installed. Also, you should be able to store each kind of spirit in each kind of crystal. Storing a strong spirit in a weak crystal could end up disastrous though. (Especially if the golemmaker doesn't know what he's doing)
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Mesa

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Yeah, one of the original golem/automaton suggestions made the bronze collosi into the first of the golems.

Are you telling me that my suggestion isn't original?
(I know that at this point everything on this board was suggested at least once in one way or another, but still)
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10ebbor10

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I've seen at least 3 threads proposing nonliving souldriven automata in one form or another. So this particular implementation is uniqueish, but the idea of a magical robot causing death and destruction suprisingly isn't.
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Naryar

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So it's golems, just with more steampunk fluff ?

I fail to see the interest in this. Why just not make a puppet with movable parts and then make these move with telekinetic magic ? We already have a bronze colossus who magically moves without even being made of different parts.

Yes, dwarves know about gears and with magic it could be doable. But it seems improbably complex when golems already exist in the world, and are far simpler than that.

I'm all for my dwarves building golems, but let's just go with the original Jewish golem myth and be done with it. aka: craft statue out of some material, add  magical item on it, instant golem.

although considered how DF goes far into physics, we definitely should find a rational explanation for how these things work. Maybe a complex system of changing material proprieties and applying kinetic energy to the material ?

10ebbor10

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Df is set in a science+ universe. Science + magic, specifically. We shouldn't try to integrate the magic into the science somehow, as I doubt it'll just lead to strange and nonsensical handwaves.

Just make sure that science is scientific and magic A is magic A.
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Mesa

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Df is set in a science+ universe. Science + magic, specifically. We shouldn't try to integrate the magic into the science somehow, as I doubt it'll just lead to strange and nonsensical handwaves.

Just make sure that science is scientific and magic A is magic A.

Might&Magic series also combines magic and science, and yet it does it perfectly.
Heroes series is a different story (literally), because butthurt 5% fans - no Forge.
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Scoops Novel

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Feet of Clay Golems are dwarfier, emphasis on clay (or rather cogs), inscribing what you wish them to do, and the possibility to go utterly insane from such if fucked up. Also, intelligent.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2013, 04:22:53 pm by Novel »
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10ebbor10

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Feet of Clay Golems are dwarfier, emphasis on clay (or rather cogs), inscribing what you wish them to do, and the possibility to go utterly insane from such if fucked up. Also, intelligent.
Just a note, those are standard golems, based on the original jewish myth.
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Scoops Novel

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I see nothing wrong with that, really. Think of all the things that could go wrong!
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