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Author Topic: Alternative (RAW-defined) Reproduction  (Read 15051 times)

NW_Kohaku

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Re: Alternative Reproduction
« Reply #30 on: February 05, 2013, 01:36:33 am »

I'm pretty sure "sex for torture" is one of those things Toady is NEVER going to put in the game, and probably a line of conversation that will get this thread locked if pursued for very long.

The act of courtship may be portrayed, and its social consequences, definitely, but not the actual act of sex, especially when it's violent and non-consensual.  That's something Toady's been pretty clear about.



To take this back towards territory that's both productive and better on-topic, I'd rather discuss some of the animal-person races.

I'm especially interested in a (non-slave, non-demeaning) multi-racial fort setup, and that would mean including the courtship rituals and social structures of those species, and what they mean when they come into peaceful or even cooperative contact with dwarves.

That is, what does a slug man society look like? (Should we even call them slug men?  Slugs are all hermaphrodites, which is kind of why I brought them up, specifically.)

Slug people have no caste, and no means of reproducing in-game currently.  (They are all called/misnamed slug men.) This would be a clear case of a one-gender race that reproduces sexually.

The question is, do we make these slug people reproduce using the same mating rituals as their base creatures, or do we go with something more human?

Given that Threetoe stories seem to indicate that animal people are actually mundane (semi-sentient) animals given full sentience and humanoid form but retaining much of their animal instinct, it seems to indicate a preference for their animalistic nature.

This would imply slug people do... well, this.  (Warning, even if it's narrated by the wonderful Sir David Attenborough, it's kinda squicky to watch.) 

Hence, slug person mating habits would involve slime trails and pheromones.

The question is, how would that actually work in a sentient creature society, especially one that may possibly live alongside dwarves?
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wierd

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Re: Alternative Reproduction
« Reply #31 on: February 05, 2013, 01:46:11 am »

Oh, I understand completely, which is why I simply touched on it, rather than wax philosphical on the matter. With an evil civ, without scruples, it's one of things best left undiscussed, but implied.

I agree that Toady is correct in not wanting his game to go there.

Moving on:

Asexual reproduction, and nonsexual reproduction, with non-hardcoded entity caste tags and a [requires:caste] tag seems the most useful. Asexual creatures could have a special case for the latter that says [requires:self], and parthenogenic same-sex ones could list their own caste, to imply that another is required.

This method would be highly flexible, and would permit fantastical magical creatures to .ake copies of themselves, like clay golems, as well as purely asexual ones like amoebas.

(It would also de-facto permit modding in homosexual unions, even if not directly included by toady, which would kill another bird with the same stone without appearing to do so just to be PC.)


It might also be useful for toady to designate a [gestator] tag, for which one actually produces the offspring.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2013, 01:48:51 am by wierd »
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Alternative Reproduction
« Reply #32 on: February 05, 2013, 02:14:56 am »

I'm fairly sure that's what "female" is for.

In one sense, all you really need is recognition of male and female tags on the same caste, and the ability to make that mean "sexually-reproducing hermaphrodite".

Asexually-reproducing creatures would probably need their own tag.

Honestly, for things like automatons that can self-replicate or manufacture more of their own, I think an expansion of interactions would be the most sane method of producing the desired effects.

That is, rather than using an interaction that turns a pile of bones to re-create a specifically undead variant of a creature, and then using an interaction to create a new type of creature from an old one, it seems like a simple "turn inanimate object into new type of creature" interaction would be a logical next step.
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wierd

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Re: Alternative Reproduction
« Reply #33 on: February 05, 2013, 04:47:35 am »

I was thinking more about the parthenogenic female only species that require a mating ritual.
Only one of them will lay eggs, while both are of the same caste.  To prevent the egg laying code from firing on both, some kind of distinction would need to be set.

Also the case with true hermaphrodites, like several species of flatworm are. When the hermaphrodite flatworms procreate, both attempt the "male" role, and essentially one just overppwers the other, thus "female" caste is simply inappropriate. A means of telling the game that only one gets the pregnancy is therefore necessary. The [gestator] tag would be especially useful for truely fantastic reproduction with species with multiple genders, where one partner simply incubates and supplies epigenetic information only. (A sample 3 gender system would be a "male", a "female", and a "matron", where the female does not carry, but supplies the ovum, and the matron carries, but only suppies biochemical information via being the gestating partner.) Other instances where the [gestator] tag would be appropriate would be in male pregnancy situations, such as in seahorses. (No, I am not a fan of what that would allow in some sick modder's mind. Just that if we want a system that can accurately model natural reproduction, it does need to be a possibility.) With seahorses, the female introduces her ova into a special pouch on the male's abdomen, where he fertilizes them, and then carries them to term. Assumption that the female always carries is therefore improper.

Avoiding hard set caste IDs, and tracking the specifics of what caste(s) are needed, and defining which caste carries provides the most flexibility to support the most organisms, with the least work. Rather than checking the caste, you look for the appropriate flag tags on all castes defined, and proceed accordingly.  This would allow for even very bizzare multistage lifecycles, like slime molds, and medusae without additional modification, since all 4 stages of medusae lifecycle could be implemented under the same entity. (To clarify, a medusa is not the gorgon of legend in this case, but is the proper term for jellyfish and coral polyps. The lifecycle of medusae is confusing, because jellyfish offspring are corals, and the offspring of corals are jellyfish. Both adult forms have 2 genders, meaning there would be 6 castes in modeling medusae: male jellyfish, female jellyfish, and coral polyp, then male coral, female coral, and jellyfish polyp.)

[Medusa life cycle]
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

By moving the work away from hardcoded castes, and toward designation tags on castes, we allow the greatest possible flexibility for the least amount of coding work. (We basically use a selectcase() containing all possible caste types, then in each caste check for the hardcoded tags, and branch execution accordingly. The structure would be very robust to new additions later.)



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Di

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Re: Alternative Reproduction
« Reply #34 on: February 05, 2013, 09:29:21 am »

I guess wierd is right. If we're talking about expansion of breeding system the [male] and [female] tags start being overly detailed like old [vermin_hunter] used to be.

I'm especially interested in a (non-slave, non-demeaning) multi-racial fort setup, and that would mean including the courtship rituals and social structures of those species, and what they mean when they come into peaceful or even cooperative contact with dwarves.
While I have nothing against a tribe of batmen having their own district in my fortress to trade with dwarfs I don't think that naked savages running around in warm forests or cave dwellers, whose ability of speaking is actually used only after dwarves bash some bits of culture into their heads, could actually hope to stand up to their masters. Even if no dwarf in the fortress looks down onto tigermen and no one except overseer views them only as instant ready expendable soldiers (3 years compared to 12 is quite tempting) they'll still be only an exotic pet who is kept in mayors office for his funny look and cute dinning manners. You see, a non-exceptional tigerman having a role larger than a dwarf would look like Friday ordering Robinson around when they're back in England.
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Neonivek

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Re: Alternative Reproduction
« Reply #35 on: February 05, 2013, 10:06:51 am »

I guess there should also be tags for whether or not the caste is considered part of the main species (and thus has its own name for example)

Especially in the case of, for example, beings created.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Alternative Reproduction
« Reply #36 on: February 05, 2013, 12:13:48 pm »

I would just point out that in both the cases of flatworms and the whiptail lizards that reproduce by parthenogenesis, there's no actual caste difference between the one carrying the eggs or not - it's simply that one will ovulate and the other won't... and in the case of the whiptail, I'm pretty sure they both do ovulate after they court. 

Hence, continuing the use of a [FEMALE] token to represent capacity to carry fertilizable eggs is still reasonable.

While I have nothing against a tribe of batmen having their own district in my fortress to trade with dwarfs I don't think that naked savages running around in warm forests or cave dwellers, whose ability of speaking is actually used only after dwarves bash some bits of culture into their heads, could actually hope to stand up to their masters. Even if no dwarf in the fortress looks down onto tigermen and no one except overseer views them only as instant ready expendable soldiers (3 years compared to 12 is quite tempting) they'll still be only an exotic pet who is kept in mayors office for his funny look and cute dinning manners. You see, a non-exceptional tigerman having a role larger than a dwarf would look like Friday ordering Robinson around when they're back in England.

You know, I really like how we can't even begin to talk about dwarves relating to any other species without someone immediately launching off into thoughts of Colonialism.  It's not like THAT ever carried any sort of negative consequences, right?

I'm starting to think that Toady's been putting multi-racial forts off just because he doesn't want to deal with the issues of racism that will taint the game when he does.  (Meanwhile, people still mock ideas of putting in sewage because clearly that is a sensitive topic...)

Well, might as well rehash THIS topic as well...  For the record, I made a thread on the topic back when I was young and naive and thought it was something I could joke about, and everyone would readily see the obvious pitfalls.  Then again, in the rather unfortunately named "Semi-Sapient" thread.

In any event, why, exactly, are Tigermen going to be "primitive natives"? Why, exactly, is it going to be obvious that Dwarven culture is superior in every conceivable way, and Tigermen are going to be beggars whose eyes will be suddenly opened by the self-evident superiority of dwarven culture? 

Clearly, they will look at our dwarves, who will not be able to come to the surface and greet them without getting violently ill, toiling around in xPig Tail Clothingx doing grueling labor, eating mushrooms and wallowing in their own filth while choking on the sulfurous fumes of their magma forges, and think that clearly, this life is better than the one they had only occasionally going out to get more food. 

I suppose it's partly the fault of the way that the game is currently set up - all culture is Dwarven culture, and all things you can do in the game are things dwarves can do. (Even if you made a peaceful alliance with cave fish people, the pathfinding wouldn't know how to swim, bird peoples don't know how to fly, there's no jobs or workshops unknown to dwarves, besides maybe the blowpipes.)

However, that doesn't mean that arrangements can't be made.  Cavern creatures might have a superior fishing skill thanks to keenly honed native techniques, and the fact that dwarves don't really use any sort of tools that would give them an advantage, anyway.  Especially when we have Improved Farming active, if some of the suggestions there are implemented, the animal people might have a much better understanding of the crops, and how to farm them more efficiently or specific breeds of crop that are superior crops for having been domesticated for longer periods of time.  They may have domesticated fierce animals.  (Who would say no to instant access to superiorly-trained jabberers?)

You could even start adding more elements into the game to give some of those creatures better advantages - Tigermen having massive advantages to leaping and climbing and special pounce actions.  New crafts, trap types, medicines, or other useful items could be available to them to trade.



Now then, with all that said, there's also nothing barring those Tigermen from learning all the things dwarves learn, either. 

Nothing stops a Tigerman from becoming a legendary armorer. 

They already have that 3-year childhood (and some don't have childhoods at all - black mamba people are apparently born "adult", although they're tiny in the first year of life) as a massive advantage. 

Why, exactly, would having dwarves around be superior, again? 

If tigermen are faster than dwarves, much larger than dwarves, learn as well as dwarves, and would make for better darn near everything than dwarves, provided you can get around that carnivore tag's meat requirements.  (Do eggs count as meat, again?)

In fact, screw dwarves, I'm making a tigerman fortress!



Finally, I do want to say that I don't think that contact should necessarily be assimilation, either.  I think it probably best to go with a system of making it possible to trade with a cavern civ pretty much whenever you wanted at first, and then make a diplomatic relations mechanic that could possibly lead to exchanges and alliances if you wanted to work peacefully and fairly with the other peoples. 

(Dwarves and animal-peoples might freely start deciding to live with the other society if they felt that other society suited them... And I should point out, many American Colonists kept fleeing the colonies and "superior British culture" to live with the Native Americans, especially when they were at the bottom of the social ladder, because many of the Native American tribes would basically accept anyone who would work and prove themselves of value to the tribe as equals.  They lacked the stiff social regimentation, and they often didn't have to work nearly as hard to make a living.  Before smallpox started wiping them out, they were healthier, lived longer, were better-fed, didn't work under such grueling conditions, and had actual social mobility that European society lacked.  In fact, much of America's later ideals of egalitarianism were from us copying their superior culture.)

If you trade with NPC cultures in your map like a cavern serpent person race, it should also help spur them to develop excesses of goods you purchase from them so that they have more to trade with you with, possibly helping make them significantly more beneficial over time, especially if they are given skills or techniques dwarves don't have, themselves.  (Again, they may have techniques for gathering more food, may be able to trade you cavern wood, offer poisons for your weapons, and possibly mercenaries.)

Sure, you could still have the abuse and such, if you wanted, but then, I'd want to see the full penalties of all the "slavery" threads I've talked in take place - it damages your culture, and forces your people to be paranoid and bigoted if you try. Slavery always harmed technological progress (because labor-saving technologies had to be abandoned for fear of idle slaves) as well as cultural progress (people living in constant fear of slave revolts were inherently more repressive and thinking from a perspective of fear). At the very least, it should require a significant portion of your dwarves as guards trying to quell any rebellious thoughts in the fish people and crush any heretical thoughts of friendship or empathy with the slaves from once-fellow dwarves by hammer.
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Neonivek

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Re: Alternative Reproduction
« Reply #37 on: February 05, 2013, 12:25:05 pm »

Quote
In any event, why, exactly, are Tigermen going to be "primitive natives"? Why, exactly, is it going to be obvious that Dwarven culture is superior in every conceivable way, and Tigermen are going to be beggars whose eyes will be suddenly opened by the self-evident superiority of dwarven culture?

I think it is because the game currently upgrades Dwarves to a full blown civilisation right from the getgo and all the other sentient creatures start from the bottom of having absolutely no civilisation whatsoever and are loose groups.

Toady currently doesn't know what to do with them.

It is one of the reasons why I consider sentient creatures without a civ definition AND that arn't a semimegabeast, power, or other type of creature... a Minor Race.

It is my hope that in the future that they become fully capable of having actualised civilisations that can rival or even surpass that of the major races.

Now of course reading what else you said I understand it further.

Quote
Why, exactly, would having dwarves around be superior, again?

The Dwarf has a omnivourious diet while the Tiger's meat exclusive diet pretty much forces them to be a nomadic society (though the Mongols had a very meat heavy diet)

The Dwarves head start also doesn't help.

Finally Legendary is only skill, it doesn't bridge technology.

Quote
Slavery always harmed technological progress (because labor-saving technologies had to be abandoned for fear of idle slaves)


It always ended up that way but it wasn't nessisarily true. It was only when slavery was cheaper then finding better ways of doing things that it lead to societal stagnation.

Civilisations that had slavery but had better rules for the treatment, rights, and use of slaves tended not to have the same problem. While ones where Slaves could be worked to death with no reprocussions had the stagnation in full force.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Alternative Reproduction
« Reply #38 on: February 05, 2013, 01:22:39 pm »

The Dwarf has a omnivourious diet while the Tiger's meat exclusive diet pretty much forces them to be a nomadic society (though the Mongols had a very meat heavy diet)

That doesn't apply to every creature.  Many animalpeople are vegetarians or else omnivores that can live on strict vegetarian diets, which is a pretty distinct advantage.  (Plus, as long as egg-laying creatures don't eat...)

The Dwarves head start also doesn't help.

Finally Legendary is only skill, it doesn't bridge technology.

Which only applies for as long as animal people haven't seen and assimilated technology from the dwarves.

If you're a legendary mechanic, and have helped put together dwarven drawbridges, you understand their technology.

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Slavery always harmed technological progress (because labor-saving technologies had to be abandoned for fear of idle slaves)


It always ended up that way but it wasn't nessisarily true. It was only when slavery was cheaper then finding better ways of doing things that it lead to societal stagnation.

Civilisations that had slavery but had better rules for the treatment, rights, and use of slaves tended not to have the same problem. While ones where Slaves could be worked to death with no reprocussions had the stagnation in full force.

If there was no economic benefit for slavery, it wouldn't exist. 

Medieval Europe had lords make slaves of their peasants, and, except for Russia, they largely phased out the whole practice when it was no longer economically viable - when impoverished free men were cheaper to work the land, and later factories, than slaves, and were of much less likelihood to riot and revolt, that's what they used.

This is exactly why the industrialized Northeast of America pre-Civil War had no slavery while the agrarian South did - not because of any enlightened attitudes (they were, if anything, even more vehemently racist than the Southerners for not having actual contact with them except when competing with them for jobs) but because you just couldn't use a slave in a factory with heavy machinery - the risk of them sabotaging the expensive machines was too obvious.
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Starver

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Re: Alternative Reproduction
« Reply #39 on: February 05, 2013, 02:18:56 pm »

There is a type of beetle, for example, that will grow a horn for fending off birds at birth if its mother was attacked by a bird, but not grow it if their mother wasn't attacked.

That is, it's something innate that it's born with, but it's not genetic.
I'm not aware of this particular case, but the term epigenetic is what describes this.  Insofar as how genes express actual physical characteristics (it's rarely a simple 1:1 match), there are also chemical (or even more complex) influences in the maternal cytoplasm (of various kinds) that might inhibit or activate genes that would otherwise have expressed themselves or remained dormant.

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Genes play a smaller role than previously imagined in how children develop than originally assumed.
Well, you still need the genes.  Cut out the "gene that would create a bird-fending-off-horn" (or, more likely, sabotage the set of genes involved in such a subtle way that what is left does not also lose the more basic function of creating the exoskeleton, etc) in a gene-line and no matter how much "bird-stress" hormone the mother passes into the offspring's cellular fluid at conception the horn thing won't happen.  (By definition, I know.  I've constructed that example rather sloppily.)


The classic human example (which is arguaed about by some, but last I saw was generally accepted) comes from the study of some people living in a Scandinavian locale, where those people whose mother's mothers had been in a (well documented) famine that struck the area could be seen to have come out with a statistically significant different physiology from those that had not.  The idea is (or was, and may have been revised) that when the grandmothers were under starvation stresses, the children (the mothers) that were conceived had direct epigenetic differences which may have helped them deal with famine, but also influenced how their ovaries (and thus the eggs that would become the next generation, every one of them created in an immature form even whilst the mother-to-be was still in vivo herself[1]) formed.

The mechanism is one thing, the reasoning is another.  In the case of starvation-stresses, sub-populations that had a tendency to create starvation-tolerant offspring (and offspring of offspring) are probably a good thing where there's little population movement in a land where long-term climate drift is sending the land productivity downwards.  As is the tendency (delayed by a generation or two) to turn off any unnecessary (and possibly disadvantaging) famine-protection when you've got some historical precedence tending to show that your offspring's offspring aren't going to so readily experience those conditions.


It's not Lamarkism, of course.  "The parent stretches their neck, thus their offspring are born with longer necks."  It's possible that there could have developed a variable neck-length giraffe (a single expressed phenotype for each animal, of course, but a genotype capable of creating long or short necks, according to which epigenetic cues get picked up from conception), where the capability to eat higher up trees gets keyed into offspring (or beyond) when the potential parent is subjected to less ground-fodder, but when there's a string of lush seasons[2] the shorter necked (and legged[3]!) versions arise to take advantage of the long-term fluctuations concerned.



Anyhow...  There's also been talk in here that (effectively) is about how some creatures are strange for not have our XX/XY gender differentiation.  Well, that's mammals (most mammals... there's some populations with a missing Y, a sort of advanced notice of the 'predicted' loss of the Y-chromosome from humanity, at some multi-millennia point in our own futures...), but go to birds and its W and Z chromosomes (and, IIRC, the "two alike" solution creates the males and the WZ-combo creates females).  And birds aren't actually too far from us, really.  (I can't recall what reptiles do[4]... Although I know they're capable of (ritual-less!) parthenogenesis.  Especially monitor lizards.  Useful when a lone female drifts from one island to another and has no other breeding option but to create 'fatherless' sons, who may be the only mates she will ever be able to have, but the sons then are capable of "mating with momma" and the brood that arises is mixed sex.)



There's loads of alternate reproductions possible, I suppose is what I'm saying (although when I started this post it was only supposed to be to say "It's called 'epigenetic'!", and leave it at that).  And almost everything you might imagine.  And many that you can't imagine, or may not have ever imagined if you hadn't heard about it, like the male Angler Fish that semi-symbiotically clamps itself to the much larger female to sustain itself on her blood, or the stages of developments of some parasitical creatures that must go through the systems of prey and predator, even to the extent of affecting the prey's behaviour to that they are more likely to be predated-upon).


How (or if) this could emerge in [RAW]-defined creature castes, I don't know.  I am similarly ignorant of whether Toady is inclined to add spores that would tell a dwarf to stand on the highest part of the fortress until the resulting fungus has consumed the dwarf's innards and sprouted a fruiting body from which more dangerous dwarf-zombiefying spores arise.

It'd be a true-to-life (if scaled-up) method of reproduction.  Some might say actually too fantastic for a Fantasy World Simulator.  Although possibly the biggest objection is that we already have more than enough ways to kill a dwarf, even if in adding this we were able to bring forth an intriguingly fabulous new life-form into the woldgen.


(If you're looking for a TL;DR;, there isn't one.  Never mind...)



[1] Ok, so it's not as far gone as Tribbles (and some rare, but actual, earthly creatures), which are born pregnant, but it's amazing to think of this.  While men are more immediate and short-term in their genetic-material-packaging methods.  Add that to the XKCD clip given, and life is indeed wondrous.

[2] Which would have to be on a longer cycle than year-to-year, to be of any particular use, or else get keyed to a frequency of change that is resonant with the time needed to breed each generation, perhaps something cicada-like melded to El Nino.

[3] I think it's said, by some, that giraffes necks aren't long, so much as it is their legs.  Their neck is barely long enough to allow them to reach the ground (even with legs splayed somewhat) in order to drink.  Thus the neck isn't as long as it is in order to reach the high branches but instead (given that the legs have grown long enough to enable the giraffe to have a better chance of getting close to high branches) it's had to grow longer in order to be able to reach the ground again.  Of course, it's nothing like as simple a Just-So Story as that, even, and it's all interlinked in a whole accidental combination (which included accidental, but necessary and thus universally surviving, changes to the vascular system to handle blood-flow pumped up to a raised head while not over-pressurising a lowered one) that one could not have predicted and yet can 'read backwards' from to gain at least some understanding of why "this particular solution worked".

[4] Actually, in describing this, I remember some of this.  Where chromosomes are key[5], demales are something like (assuming they share the same 'letters' as birds) WZ.  Pathenogenically-produced eggs rearrange these to come out as WW and ZZ eggs only.  One of these types is sterile, the other produces males.  Those males, when they breed with a female (yes, possibly their own mother) do the usual "give half to add to half of the mother's set" job, but instead of it being which of the male pairing, dictating the offspring's gender, it's which half of the female gene that does this.

[5] And then there are those where chromosomes mean little, and it's the temperature of the nest that dictates the gender.  Or every fish starts off male but social pressures send a precious few down the developmental path (in the wild, post-birth!) to become female.  Other fish start off all-female and (different) social pressures sends the 'top dog' fish into a conversion phase to make them male.  Like a mature-stage epigenetic influence, I suppose one could say (although doubtless there are better ways to describe this).
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Alternative Reproduction
« Reply #40 on: February 05, 2013, 03:41:41 pm »

I would point out that the old theory of giraffes having long necks has largely been debunked (although you seem to have hinted at this with the third note), and more can be seen in this webpage.  But basically, there are multiple reasons for a giraffe having a long neck, including the fact that males need long necks for their courtship ritual.  (They club each other with their heads and horns to gain dominance - a long neck gives massive leverage when swinging their heads.  The longer-necked giraffes are capable of winning courtship duels and getting mates to pass on their genes with, giving an evolutionary advantage to long-necked males.) That isn't to say that long necks don't help with other evolutionary advantages, either (like having an elevated perch from which to watch for predators), but that it's not a single reason.

And it's not like extreme evolution taking place just for mating rituals is odd, either. Just look at some of the many birds of paradise species.

In fact, a lot of human physiology, especially in the sexual dimorphism department, is based upon courtship.  Baboons have bright red hind quarters because that's what baboons look at in a mate - the hind quarters.  As humans swapped around to doing most of the important interactions between the genders face-to-face, our sexual characteristics changed in response.  The unusually large male sexual organ of humans (twice the size of great apes), and the unusually large breasts of women are there mostly just because they advertise us as healthy mates.  Far more than that, though, human faces changed.  Oversized eyes, a distinction of babies, became a key trait of triggering a human's instinctive desire to protect the young, and therefore became a key trait for survival.  Babies and children grew larger eyes to make them less likely to be murdered by bands of non-family humans, and so did women in general, since the younger they looked, the more likely they would be assimilated into the breeding pool of a conquering tribe or band of pirates/vikings/raiders rather than slaughtered when their tribe/village was defeated.  (To put some rather nasty things as delicately as possible.)



Anyway, back to putting this into practice for DF...

I think that interactions, since they can already turn creatures back and forth between whole different species, should be able to relatively easily handle a notion like a fish transforming from female to male.   That shouldn't be too hard for Toady.

As for parasitic spores that cause dwarves to explode and contaminate everyone else in the fort with the parasite... well... doesn't that pretty much describe some of the horrific contagions in DF, already? The ones that liquify your organs, and make you leave a trail of liquified dwarf organs behind you which infects everyone who walks in the puddle of liquid dwarf, spreading it to every dwarf in the fortress, crumbling your fort in minutes...  Plus, there's thralls that spread their thralling-dust, which absolutely one-ups Ophiocordyceps Unilateralis as a horror in every way imaginable.



One of the things I think should be addressed, though, is the relatively mundane ways many creatures already breed.

Egg-layers in the game already, for example, will have the mothers stay with the eggs until they starve if they need to eat.  (Then the eggs die for lack of a mother.)

A great many fish and reptiles (like crocodiles or sea turtles, for example) do not do this. The mother deposits eggs and then leaves them to fend for herself.

Meanwhile, birds do not stay with eggs until they die of starvation, either.  This is the exact reason birds mate for life - the mother trades places with the father, who guards the eggs/feeds the hatchlings when she goes out to eat, and then when she comes back, they trade places.

Only a few types of species will have mothers that actually die sitting on their eggs. (Notably, octopi.) The way that egg-layers are currently implemented are just strange and haphazard amalgomations of the way that dogs breed and chickens lay eggs, rather than anything that makes sense for those creatures.
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GreatWyrmGold

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Re: Asexual (and perhaps otherwise non-two-gender) reproduction for creatures?
« Reply #41 on: February 05, 2013, 09:32:47 pm »

That's not even getting into the weirdness of gastropods like mollusks and pals.
gastropods like mollusks and pals.
implication that mollusks are a subclade of gastropods
...
That's just wrong. It's the other way around.
lulwut?
I was referring to the meaning of what gastropod means-- StomachFoot, EG-- things that move around with muscles on their abdomens. (Slugs, Snails, Clams, etc.) In the world of DF, we shouldn't make assumptions about the phylogenic categorization of fantastical organisms. Instead, I was referring to the body plan description-- gastropods.  In the DF universe, this would include things like Fleshballs. Those are NOT mollusks, but still gastropoid.
*shakes wierd's monitor*
GASTROPODS! ARE! A! CLASS! OF! MOLLUSKS! SO! ARE! BIVALVES! THESE! ARE! NOT! FANTASY! CREATURES! FLESHBALLS! ARE! NOTHING! LIKE! ANY! KNOWN! ORGANISMS!
WORDS MEAN THINGS! STOP USING WORDS TO MEAN WORDS THEY AREN'T!

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:D (Fleshball has no nervous tissue, has no openings for consumption or defecation, and does not secrete a shell, nor have any noteworthy internal structure.  It is therefor, not diagnostically a member of the phylum mollusca, despite being clearly a gastropod.)
As it so happens, it also lacks any traits which make it a gastropod, including a digestive tract, a mantle (aka "That thing which secretes a shall"), or so much as an organ. It's most similar to cnidarians, although obviously without nematocysts.

Sorry, biology is a sensitive spot for me.

(When the system works properly, it means that each generation of assassins are more deadly and more crafty than the last.)
Or that the old generation has declined with age.
But yes, that would make sense.

(Plus, as long as egg-laying creatures don't eat...)
Or eat different things, like real-world fowl do...
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Asexual (and perhaps otherwise non-two-gender) reproduction for creatures?
« Reply #42 on: February 05, 2013, 09:39:51 pm »

As it so happens, it also lacks any traits which make it a gastropod, including a digestive tract, a mantle (aka "That thing which secretes a shall"), or so much as an organ. It's most similar to cnidarians, although obviously without nematocysts.

I always thought of it as like a sponge, but where it was somehow both more dense and also floated in the air.  Their lack of any sort of intelligible organs or biological process being because they are basically just a clump of largely-independent cells with no central organization.

Of course, that may just be because they have a game role similar to that of a giant sponge...

You could also kinda-sorta think of them as slimes from typical fantasy (ignoring that Floating Guts are the direct reference to those creatures) since they are basically just a blob of organic substance that sits there absorbing damage without really doing anything in return.
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Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
"And no Frankenstein-esque body part stitching?"
"Not yet"

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GreatWyrmGold

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Re: Asexual (and perhaps otherwise non-two-gender) reproduction for creatures?
« Reply #43 on: February 05, 2013, 10:07:16 pm »

As it so happens, it also lacks any traits which make it a gastropod, including a digestive tract, a mantle (aka "That thing which secretes a shall"), or so much as an organ. It's most similar to cnidarians, although obviously without nematocysts.
I always thought of it as like a sponge, but where it was somehow both more dense and also floated in the air.  Their lack of any sort of intelligible organs or biological process being because they are basically just a clump of largely-independent cells with no central organization.
Of course, that may just be because they have a game role similar to that of a giant sponge...
You could also kinda-sorta think of them as slimes from typical fantasy (ignoring that Floating Guts are the direct reference to those creatures) since they are basically just a blob of organic substance that sits there absorbing damage without really doing anything in return.
Flesh balls are capable of movement, and are in fact made out of muscle. Muscles and movement (implying at least a distributed nervous net) implies at least a cnidarian's tissue-level complexity.
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wierd

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Re: Alternative Reproduction
« Reply #44 on: February 05, 2013, 10:20:32 pm »

But they don't have a nervous system, and may well just be a biochemically motivated ball of passively nutrient absorbing and releasing tissue.  Sorta like heart muscle culture in a petri dish, just grown really large.

Heart muscles will beat without any nervous tissue involvement, and will synchronize activity with each other using ion concentrations alone.

That fleshball specifically has tags asserting that it indeed has no nervous tissue of any sort, this seems the more appropriate biological metaphor.

Also, learn to seperate jargon from informal use.  I used "gastropod" as an adjective, Not as a noun. "Gastropod" as a noun has a very specific use. "Gastropod" as an adjectie relates to body plan, as an abstract high level concept. They are not the same, and the use was not the same. Calm down francis, and enjoy the game. :D
« Last Edit: February 05, 2013, 10:22:58 pm by wierd »
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