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[Destyvirago]

You have probably hear something like this before but I feel I need to get it off my chest 


1. Armor skill
First of all let me say that I believe that the armor skill as it is now is a bit broken. As a result we are seeing cheesy ways to exploit it with "danger rooms" and such. Seeing how difficult it is to raise this important skill i can see why it is being done. The best way to correct this problem is simply to change the way you earn armor skill points into something more realistic so that using "danger rooms" is no longer possible. I suggest that instead of skill being earned by your Dwarfs getting hit by an enemy (or training spear) they should get skill by doing everyday work when wearing armor. This is historically how knights and other warriors of the medieval times trained for combat by doing combat drills wearing the armor they would take with them to combat. So just walking around and doing training and other non military tasks should build armor skill for your dwarfs. The more pieces of armor the dwarf wears the faster they gain skill. We could probably set a scale so that a fully armored dwarf would gain skill the fastest but a dwarf only wearing a steel helmet would gain skill very slow. In practice it would kind of be like the skill "crutch-walking" except skill gain would be regulated by the amount of armor on your dwarfs.   

2. Weapon skills
Having weapon skills for other weapons should help out when fighting opponents that use that weapon. I'll make an example: Urist McMacedwarf is a lvl 8 macedwarf and he is facing a Lvl 8 sword using Goblin. All other skills such as fighter and dodge, armor and such are the same. This will be a close fight as both fighters are equally skilled in their chosen weapon.
Now enter Urist McArmsmaster. He also is using a mace with lvl 8 skill and he is fighting the same lvl 8 sword Goblin. But unlike the Macedwarf our Armsmaster also has 4 lvl of skill in swords. Using his knowledge of swordfighting Urist McArmsmaster should have an easier time of fighting the same Goblin.
Basically I suggest that in a fight when a fighter has skill in the weapon his opponent uses he will get an advantage. If both have skills in their opponents weapon they cancel each other out but the one that has the skill superiority gets the bonus. So in our example above if the goblin had 2 levels of macefighting he would have an advange agains Urist McMacedwarf but Urist McArmsmaster would still have a 2 skillpoint superiority and get an advantage in the fight.

Implemented correctly this would make cross training weapon skills much more valuable as it could change the outcome of a combat. We could even make it so that when you fight an opponent that uses a given weapon you would gain some weapon skill in that weapon. So when your Macedwarf is fighting or sparring agains a spear user they not only learn how to use their mace but they learn about how a spear user fights and how best fight against such a foe in the future.   

Just some ideas I had about combat and armor use. I belive I have heard that combat is getting a lookover sometime so I thought I could throw these ideas out now. Please feel free to tell me what you think good or bad.

 

[NW_Kohaku]

If you're going to worry whether something was suggested before or not, it is highly suggested you use the search feature at the top of the forum before you make suggestions to make sure one way or the other...

With that said, a quick search doesn't pull anything up.

The armor user skill suggestion particularly does make a lot of sense, especially since the skill relates to how much of a movement penalty and fatigue armor gives you, rather than an actual defensive bonus (which dodger gives).

[GreatWyrmGold]

These ideas do sound pretty good.

[nanomage]

I like the second one, though I think it's now kind o addressed by having the Fighter skill.
The first one i don't like. Changing the "being hit while in armor" training method to "being in armor" makes no sense for me. Without the rehaul and polish of how experience is gained in general, this I think would be exchanging one bad system for another.

[Larix]

I can't say much about the second suggestion - it sounds reasonable, but might be too difficult to actually make use of in fortress mode unless you're very competent in military management.

On the first, i heartily agree - especially since the main use of the skill right now is the ability to move normally while wearing armour, just moving/fighting while armoured seems like the most obvious way to improve the skill. There probably ought to be some limitations so it doesn't get _too_ easy to raise - just strap on a bunch of heavy items in adventure mode and walk through the courtyard of the keep for half an afternoon. Being in a combat situation while wearing armour should probably raise the skill significantly more, but whether you're getting hit or not shouldn't make much of a difference.

In the current system, a medieval knight would not get better at wearing armour by running or other strenuous exercises while wearing it, and not even by sparring while wearing it when all blows are parried or blocked with a shield. He could get skill by standing around in his underwear (or even stark naked) while someone punched him in the foot.

[Destyvirago]

Hello

As for my armor skill suggestion I would like to clarify a bit more. I was imagining that a dwarf with all metal armor should earn about 200-250 points of armor skill each month when doing regular training/sparring. That would give a dwarf a few points of armor skill after a year of training and he would reach Legendary after about 6-7 years. I believe anyone that would carry a full set of metal armor for several years would learn to wear it like a second skin. I would also like that all combat related moves should build some armor skill as well, so that striking, blocking and dodging when wearing armor should give points. Wearing leather armor should give skill half as fast as metal armor.

As for adventure mode I am not sure if it is possible to put in a daily skill cap so you can only earn X amount of armor xp just walking around each day. Armor skill gained from fighting should of course not be limited by that daily cap. If no cap is possible we could just set a low armor skill gain of 0.25-0.50 per tile traveled in full armor. That way you would still get a regular skill gain but it would be difficult to exploit it to Legendary as that requires about 18000 skillpoints and if somebody is willing to walk around for hours at end in a courtyard to get a few a skillpoints they should be free to waste their time doing that.

[NW_Kohaku]

The first one i don't like. Changing the "being hit while in armor" training method to "being in armor" makes no sense for me. Without the rehaul and polish of how experience is gained in general, this I think would be exchanging one bad system for another.

The "wearing armor makes you better at armor user" suggestion makes perfect sense when you consider that we're talking about a skill that relates to how easily you move in armor, and how tired you get wearing armor, not for how much damage you mitigate in armor.

Think of it like how the modern real-world Army trains its recruits how to slug a 50-pound kit around for a 10-hour forced march... by making them wear heavy gear and march for 10 hours, not by hitting them with sticks while wearing that gear.

It's not the same thing as dodger or shield user, this is a skill about having stamina while wearing something heavy. 

[nanomage]

yeah you're right that it makes more sense from RL point of view. However, in-game realization would be horrible, because the game lacks many of aspects that reality has.
In game, all that wearing a full set of steel plate does to you is make you slower. It doesn't even takes exhaustion into account, not to mention general clumsiness, knocking down surrounding objects, struggling to you feet each time you fall, inability to perform any precise tasks with those gauntlets and being constantly depressed about it. There need to be more downsides to weaing armor to offset the benefit from it building up armor user skill.

I think no player would hesitate sticking a set of mail and bone plate on every dwarf immediately if that would make them all Legendary Armor users after 7 years.

After all their was a reason that those knights trained in armor and not lived in it. The suggestion would make sense if skill gain would be only from training in armor (combat drills, sparring, running in circles specifically to train armor usage) and if not the amount of armor pieces would be taken into account but their total weight.

edit:spelling

[Destyvirago]

yeah you're right that it makes more sense from RL point of view. However, in-game realization would be horrible, because the game lacks many of aspects that reality has.
In game, all that wearing a full set of steel plate does to you is make you slower. It doesn't even takes exhaustion into account, not to mention general clumsiness, knocking down surrounding objects, struggling to you feet each time you fall, inability to perform any precise tasks with those gauntlets and being constantly depressed about it. There need to be more downsides to weaing armor to offset the benefit from it building up armor user skill.

I think no player would hesitate sticking a set of mail and bone plate on every dwarf immediately if that would make them all Legendary Armor users after 7 years.

After all their was a reason that those knights trained in armor and not lived in it. The suggestion would make sense if skill gain would be only from training in armor (combat drills, sparring, running in circles specifically to train armor usage) and if not the amount of armor pieces would be taken into account but their total weight.

edit:spelling

I am quite aware that in real life knights and other fighters in medieval times did not wear their armor all the time. However since DF is still only a game and that time does not work as in real life it is very impractical to simulate the warrior dwarfs taking on and off their armor before or after training. Some tasks in the game that should only take minutes or hours in RL will take days or weeks of gametime. So in order to not make anything more difficult or complicated than it already is, its for the best to let dwarfs with armor assigned to them carry it all the time. Having dwarfs with heavy armor get a skill penalty for some crafting tasks is possible, but I don't see any big need for that.

As for giving every dwarf armor, I said in my suggestion that only metal armor gain skills fast. Leather and bone(I forgot to mention bone armor, but I consider that light armor like leather) would gain skill half as fast. So if you where to give a non fighter dwarf leather or bone armor for all slots it would take them about 12-14 years to reach legendary. And that is only if you armor every slot, a dwarf with only 50% of his body covered would gain skill at 50% speed, so he would then take about 24-28 years to reach legendary. If anybody is willing to put that effort in to armor every dwarf that way I have no problem with that. The leather and bone could have been made into crafts that would help a new fort a lot more than an leather and bone armored farmer that now moves slower than usual. The armor skill does not improve survival much, so a farmer with legendary armor skill and leather and bone armor will still die if a goblin raider reaches him, it will just take a few more hits.
armor skill is vital for your trained fighters as it gives them the mobility to react to the enemy in time, but without without fighting skills such as a weapon skill, fighter, dodge and shield they would just rush to their death.

So basically I think a system where armor skill is gained slowly but surely by use and faster by actually fighting is better than the current system that requires the dwarfs to be hit in order to gain skill. I suggested using a modified "crutch-walking" system as that is already implemented and working. I know that the Toady one has a lot to do, so I wanted my suggestion to give a better and more realistic result than today while not requiring lots of work and coding. 

[NW_Kohaku]

You can base the armor skill off of weight, and if the armor is of insufficient weight, it doesn't train armor user.  Hence, light bone armor or leather that isn't sufficiently thick enough to really impair a dwarf won't train the skill.

Beyond that, if we get to the point where donning and doffing clothing could be routine and trustworthy, having military dwarves take off their armor to eat and sleep or when they are off-duty makes perfect sense, as well, since we, as players, aren't going to be bored or have to overly-micromanage that.  (Although it will lead to the expected problems of an off-duty hammerlord with her hammer and platemail on the other end of the fort.)

Further beyond that, a clumsiness concept is worthwhile as an idea, and it's probable that Toady will, at some point, include something that simulates being clumsy in, but for now, simply moving and doing everything significantly slower when they are encumbered is a penalty worth noting.  Weight can drop a dwarf down to speeds where they take one step per day if they have bulky enough equipment.

Exhaustion is, somewhat, taken into account.  Just plain moving doesn't exhaust one, and possibly including exhaustion into just moving if they are sufficiently encumbered is a good idea, but everything that does exhaust a dwarf already does so more when they are encumbered.

[CrzyMonkeyNinja]

I think both suggestions make sense. Wearing heavy armour should also increase their strength attribute if it doesn’t already.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I like the second one, though I think it's now kind o addressed by having the Fighter skill.

Not so much; a macedwarf without training in hammers or swords would fight as well with a maul as a short sword.

The first one i don't like. Changing the "being hit while in armor" training method to "being in armor" makes no sense for me. Without the rehaul and polish of how experience is gained in general, this I think would be exchanging one bad system for another.

The "Armor User" skill affects only how much armor slows you down. Being used to armor's weight would be the most important training for this skill.

You can base the armor skill off of weight, and if the armor is of insufficient weight, it doesn't train armor user.  Hence, light bone armor or leather that isn't sufficiently thick enough to really impair a dwarf won't train the skill.

(Or cotton candy, of course.)

Beyond that, if we get to the point where donning and doffing clothing could be routine and trustworthy, having military dwarves take off their armor to eat and sleep or when they are off-duty makes perfect sense, as well, since we, as players, aren't going to be bored or have to overly-micromanage that.  (Although it will lead to the expected problems of an off-duty hammerlord with her hammer and platemail on the other end of the fort.)

We already have problems like that; we wouldn't lose anything.