Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4

Author Topic: Sh*t  (Read 5576 times)

NW_Kohaku

  • Bay Watcher
  • [ETHIC:SCIENCE_FOR_FUN: REQUIRED]
    • View Profile
Re: Sh*t
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2013, 12:42:55 am »

Assuming people can find deep enough soil. I'd imagine that 100-250 dwarves, using a single latrine, would fill up a Z-level or two before it could all decay into the soil.

Again, you can always just create uses for it. 

That soil can then be fertilizer, and you can consume it by putting it back into the fields.  In fact, there are real-world businesses that have worm farms specifically for turning manure into fertilizer quickly and efficiently.  (And they sell the worms they breed, as well, since they aerate the soil.)

Liquid waste is even more useful, as it can be turned into ammonia, which is fertilizer, key component in most forms of explosives explosives, common form of acid, dying agent, and even a common disinfectant.  (Discworld even makes mention of the business that Gong Farmers do...)

People tend to be squeemish nowadays, but the fact of the matter is, it's not just the Native Americans - we modern humans use every part of the cow, since all biological things are biochemical treasure-troves, and efficiency is king in capitalism. 
Logged
Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
"And no Frankenstein-esque body part stitching?"
"Not yet"

Improved Farming
Class Warfare

LaikaBauss

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Sh*t
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2013, 07:22:34 am »

Sh*t filling up z-levels?

See, on dump zones, you can put infinite things in one single tile, and so, toilets could act the same way. So space yould not be a problem, and blocking the "smell" is possible using floor hatch.

I think that, because such a feature simply does not exist yet, the way it could work, on mechanics, is infinite.

You see, after some days, poop could like, stop releasing toxic vapors. And on that stage, you could use it for, well, stuff.

Also, im sorry for the repetitive post. I did not look on other posts before. Lazy i guess. Also, its somewhat a peculiar topic.

Logged

10ebbor10

  • Bay Watcher
  • DON'T PANIC
    • View Profile
Re: Sh*t
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2013, 10:27:21 am »

Quantum stockpiling is not intended behaviour. Eventually, when tile size is exactly determined, it's going to be patched out.

There's no sense in intentionally adding more bugs to the game, so...
Logged

King Mir

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Sh*t
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2013, 11:02:15 am »

I think that waste management would be a major obstacle when living in an deep underground environment, and the game should faithfully represent that challenge. It's unfortunate that so many people are so squeamish about it.

wierd

  • Bay Watcher
  • I like to eat small children.
    • View Profile
Re: Sh*t
« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2013, 02:14:14 pm »

I can think of a number of ways in which dwarven and animal excrement could add some new !!Excitement!! to the game.

1) A novel projectile material for the catapult. Nothing voices your disdain for elven merchants and goblin siegers like flying poo being hurled at them at terminal velocities.

2) Something that is less likely to cause serious crop problems than raw potash as a fertilizer. (bonus if toady puts in actual C:N:P ratios for crops. Potash only supplies P. Bloodmeal supplies mostly N. Poo supplies C, P and N.)

3) Something for potash makers and wood burners to actually do. (Poo can be burned for potash, and also turned into charcoal.)

4) while disgusting, urine was fundamentally necessary to medieval textile and dye processes. Specifically, for the rhetting of linen, and the setting of blue dyes.  (Woad and indigo blue are really the same pigment, and require ammonia to dissolve in the dyebath. This means festering urine is required.)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

5) a more accurate view into medieval leather and tanning industries....
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

6) Yet another means of syndrome spread within a fortress, and another source of micromanagement FUN. Possibly with explosive/flammable gasses! (flaming gas trap! WHEE!)

Instead of fixating on how Poo and urine are "Gross, eww. I dont wanna play with that!", think about how those items are insanely useful, and even indispensable.

It isn't about "Dwarves going off on potty breaks"-- its about the "Oh, I fling PIGSHIT at you! Your' mother was a hamster, and your father smelled of elderberries!", the potential for exploding gasses, and even more micromanaged process flows, and even making currently useless dwarves into dwarves that are suddenly VERY useful.

Logged

NW_Kohaku

  • Bay Watcher
  • [ETHIC:SCIENCE_FOR_FUN: REQUIRED]
    • View Profile
A discussion on the industrial uses of recycled biological waste
« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2013, 02:49:35 pm »

Well, there's a likelihood that we're not going to get anything over the objections of the squeemish if we're going to be having waste-loaded catapults, so I don't really want to push for those things.

Someone in the FoTF thread said this:
While, personally, I support the decision to avoid more detailed bodily functions and more detailed waste than the generic "Grime and filth" material, it would be nice if, on dwarven hygiene and cleanliness, it would be nice to designate a well specifically for cleaning, at which point dwarves would "Clean self" there preferentially and not use the water that was liable to become contaminated/nasty for washing patients or emergency drinking unless no other source was avaliable.  Overseers, naturally, would have ensuring that "Cleaning" wells and "Drinking" wells didn't share a cistern on their own heads.

See, I like this. Make dwarves "wash" more often- maybe even have them like having private drinking wells/washing wells- and then let it all be abstracted out.

It's a big step forward to have "dirty wells" that can have their products used as part of an industry, but where the risk of infectious contaminants is a major challenge, even if we have to shy away from talking about what "going to water the flowers" means directly.

If we are to have any success of pushing this forward, we need to stop heading this as a "sh*t thread", and actually work towards making this slightly more palatable than... well, you know...
Logged
Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
"And no Frankenstein-esque body part stitching?"
"Not yet"

Improved Farming
Class Warfare

wierd

  • Bay Watcher
  • I like to eat small children.
    • View Profile
Re: Sh*t
« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2013, 02:59:03 pm »

We could still get both, if we think about it.

Making excrement into a contaminant that can taint a well, while also championing to get contaminants easier to weaponize, would have the synergistic effect of making poo weaponized.

(See the 'jug of forgotten beast ichor + catapult' idea from the medicine thread. Substitute 'jug of brown filth')

This would be subversive, rather and overt, as an inclusion.
Logged

Scelly9

  • Bay Watcher
  • That crazy long-haired queer liberal communist
    • View Profile
Re: Sh*t
« Reply #22 on: January 30, 2013, 02:59:50 pm »

Why is this still being discussed? Toady said no, so I doubt it's ever going to happen.
Logged
You taste the jug! It is ceramic.
Quote from: Loud Whispers
SUPPORT THE COMMUNIST GAY MOVEMENT!

wierd

  • Bay Watcher
  • I like to eat small children.
    • View Profile
Re: Sh*t
« Reply #23 on: January 30, 2013, 03:03:07 pm »

because people can change their minds, and toady is a person?

Logged

NW_Kohaku

  • Bay Watcher
  • [ETHIC:SCIENCE_FOR_FUN: REQUIRED]
    • View Profile
Re: Sh*t
« Reply #24 on: January 30, 2013, 03:56:19 pm »

Why is this still being discussed? Toady said no, so I doubt it's ever going to happen.
because people can change their minds, and toady is a person?

Because Toady's been changing his answer, actually.

From an interview on Reddit:
Quote from: ToadyOne
I like fertilizer, animal tracking and sewers. I dislike potty breaks. This is an example of realism that I think has a lot of potential for trouble. Potty breaks in adventure mode might be realistic, but there are immersion issues there. He he he, I mean in the sense of the player being kicked out of their groove. The other kind of immersion wouldn't be so bad, because sewers are common adventure environments. In dwarf mode, dwarves already take a lot of time out for self-maintenance, and this would be a more senseless kind, compared to something like eating.

That's not saying "I'm totally opposed to this", it's saying "I don't want dwarves to spend so much time in self-maintenance, especially if I don't see much benefit for it."

Hence, it completely leaves the door open to an argument that fulfills three conditions:
1. It doesn't overburden the game with dwarves on break.
2. It provides some useful game function.
3. It isn't just being gross or otherwise upsetting to most players.
Logged
Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
"And no Frankenstein-esque body part stitching?"
"Not yet"

Improved Farming
Class Warfare

thburns

  • Bay Watcher
  • I came, I saw..... It sucked!
    • View Profile
Re: Sh*t
« Reply #25 on: January 30, 2013, 05:57:49 pm »

I can see why poo may upset some, and make others disgusted. But, it's just a game. None of it real, only pixels and code here.

I mean come on. We play a game where the genocide of another race is acceptable, condoned, and applauded (Elves anyone, even HUMANS)! We can slaughter dogs, and cats. Mothers take there children with them when they "want" to die, and to other highly questionable things. Kids drink alcohol.

There are sooo many things in here that in reality I highly object to and find odd/disturbing/disgusting, but I know it's only a game, a terrific one yes, but it's just a game.

I'm still not saying I'm for, or against the idea here, but I had to put 2 cents in from a different perspective.
Logged
If only life and parenting were as easy as "Dwarf Fortress"

King Mir

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Sh*t
« Reply #26 on: January 30, 2013, 10:04:22 pm »

Kids drinking alcohol is actually totally historic. Watered down alcohol is much healthier for kids than the kind of water you'd find in a medieval town. Alcohol kills bacteria in the water, making it better to drink.

NW_Kohaku

  • Bay Watcher
  • [ETHIC:SCIENCE_FOR_FUN: REQUIRED]
    • View Profile
Re: Sh*t
« Reply #27 on: January 30, 2013, 11:03:39 pm »

Kids drinking alcohol is actually totally historic. Watered down alcohol is much healthier for kids than the kind of water you'd find in a medieval town. Alcohol kills bacteria in the water, making it better to drink.

Well, specifically, they made what is basically grog (at least, it's called grog when you're doing it with rum) - they less watered down their alcohol as much as they alcoholed-up their water. 

It helps that almost all of it was basically bathtub wine, and it usually had a relatively low alcohol content as not much of it fermented and was closer to something like grape juice or porridge with a kick.
Logged
Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
"And no Frankenstein-esque body part stitching?"
"Not yet"

Improved Farming
Class Warfare

wierd

  • Bay Watcher
  • I like to eat small children.
    • View Profile
Re: Sh*t
« Reply #28 on: January 30, 2013, 11:15:12 pm »

Indeed, however, disease was a considerable issue in that time period, due to chronic malnutrition, poor dentistry, and overall poor sanitary conditions.

The microbe that causes bubonic plaugue (and pneumatic as well) is really just an otherwise benign soil microbe, that is normally fought off, adapting to conditions in a living host, due to poor immune reactions.

Three simple things would have greatly impacted dark age and medieval life:

1) basic sanitation. (No, dumping a fresh layer of straw onto the floor to cover up last year's garbage is NOT sanitary.)

2) using iron or steel flour mills instead of stone. (Stone ground flour will rapidly erode primary molars, leading to dental diseases. Stone particles are harder than tooth enamel. Even the greeks and romans had this problem, and they were far more festidious about dental hygiene than the darkage europeans.)

3) eating a more balanced diet. (Most peasants literally were mere days away from starvation, because of absurd conditions enacted by regional lords, and because of an overall lack of conservation or proper crop care knowledge. People "poached" to survive, because they couldn't afford meat, and because all hunting was poaching. The primary food staple of the peasantry was pottage. Essentially porridge.)

Logged

thburns

  • Bay Watcher
  • I came, I saw..... It sucked!
    • View Profile
Re: Sh*t
« Reply #29 on: January 30, 2013, 11:25:28 pm »

But I was specifically referring to today's, modern people. We wouldn't condone that. Lol I can't even imagine my little girl ever drinking in her life, even though I do once in a while.
But back then. Oh hell yeah. Disease was rampant. Water "soiled", homes filthy/cold, streets covered in crap (of all kinds). Medieval Venice is a good example. It's said the stink could be smelled from miles away.
But yeah some of their "alcohol" wasn't fermented, so it would probably be like drinking  a can of 3/4 O' Douls mixed with 1/4 can Buddyweiser.

Anywho though.
Logged
If only life and parenting were as easy as "Dwarf Fortress"
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4