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Author Topic: How to make a D&D player stop being a decerebrate  (Read 11767 times)

Bauglir

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Re: How to make a D&D player stop being a decerebrate
« Reply #30 on: January 29, 2013, 12:36:36 am »

In completely opposite advice to most of the thread, don't be passive-aggressive about it. If you adopt any of these strategies, tell him what you're doing before you do it - he probably won't care, and may assume he can handle it, but the optimal resolution for any problem with a player is to deal with the player, not the character. If you've already been up-front about what's troubling you, and you've been polite about it (I cannot stress this enough - make sure you're avoiding saying he's "playing the game wrong", and so on, else you're sure to get resistance for the sake of spiting you), then you may need to present an ultimatum - if he keeps messing around, you won't DM for him anymore.

That said, you may want to take a step back and examine your own position. For instance, dictating what his character is supposed to be is absurd - I don't see how you can argue that a Barbarian of any race (Goliath or otherwise) should be following a Buddhist-like path to enlightenment. I don't see any reason why a Barbarian couldn't, but claiming it should be mandatory doesn't make any sense. And even if it did, he's the one who comes up with the character. That means he's got the responsibility to make sure his character isn't a douchebag, as has been said before, but it also means he's the one who gets to decide what "in character" means.

Adding stuff to indicate a "childish tone" comes off as pretty childish yourself, as well. In another example, there's no good reason why he should have set the traps to maximum if he didn't actually steal the hammer - he left it behind after all, and it was very clear that the situation was based on stealing. Since Moradin was clearly directly involved with the whole setup, it's not inconceivable that that distinction would matter (as opposed to if there was a simple mechanical trap rigged up to it), and making it so would probably have been a better way of handling the situation without punishing the rest of the party.

I'm not saying you're wrong - he's clearly not acting in accordance with his bizarrely high (for a Barbarian) mental stats, and he's doing obnoxious things apparently for the sake of it. But stripping away your own emotional attachment to what's "the right way" is an absolutely necessary skill for a DM to develop, so that you can approach your players' ideas reasonably and ensure that when they come up with something brilliant, they can be rewarded even if you didn't expect it, while terrible ideas can still be fairly condemned. And it's vital when you're actually explaining why some behavior is a problem, so that it doesn't come off as a childish power-play. You need to be able to explain why his behavior is bad for the game, not why he's wrong, if you see the distinction. Otherwise, he'll be most inclined to rebel further.
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“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

uber pye

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Re: How to make a D&D player stop being a decerebrate
« Reply #31 on: January 29, 2013, 12:52:27 am »

1. Tell him how he is hurting the game

2. Start making ways to push away his stupidity and the consequences of it from hurting the other characters.
     For example, your bother insulting the god emperor, instead of the rest of the group getting arrested, allow
     them try to talk their way out (you can even rig what ever dice rolls they need to make
     so the rest of the party always get out free and unharmed)

3. Give him the three strike rule. If he does something to piss off the group three times he is out for good.

4. If all else fails, and he continues to show up ignore him completely for the duration of the game
     and whenever he brings up the game.

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penguinofhonor

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Re: How to make a D&D player stop being a decerebrate
« Reply #32 on: January 29, 2013, 01:30:19 am »

@bauglir

When did "We treated each other like adults and solved our problems with a minimum of aggression and drama" ever make any hilarious stories?
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Neonivek

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Re: How to make a D&D player stop being a decerebrate
« Reply #33 on: January 29, 2013, 01:31:43 am »

@bauglir

When did "We treated each other like adults and solved our problems with a minimum of aggression and drama" ever make any hilarious stories?

Keeping up Appearances could make that funny.
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Delta Foxtrot

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Re: How to make a D&D player stop being a decerebrate
« Reply #34 on: January 29, 2013, 04:10:18 am »

As some have already said, don't be a passive-aggressive dick. Explain to him in honest terms how his "fun" is not compatible with the group's idea of "fun". He can try to change if he can or he can leave the group. You're brother is not playing the game wrong, he's merely playing it in the wrong group. Different playstyles suit different folks and some are just incompatible and this seems to be one of those cases.

This is all assuming that it really is a group decision to let him go, and not a GM-only decision.
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Leatra

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Re: How to make a D&D player stop being a decerebrate
« Reply #35 on: January 29, 2013, 04:57:41 am »

Make sure his actions cost his party members dearly and let the others sort it out in the most bloody way possible... in the game of course, unless you really hate your brother.
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shadenight123

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Re: How to make a D&D player stop being a decerebrate
« Reply #36 on: January 29, 2013, 06:26:17 am »

Mind you, the passive-aggressive is something I, shame to me, did in the past. (I was just a young heathen who had barely begun dungeon mastering!) Now I tend to speak immediately my mind to the problem player.
I do thank Bauglir for having given me a more neutral version of the facts, but the problem was that moradin's statue's words and the traps activating weren't related to gods, but to a couple of dwarven wizards who had sealed in the fortress to avoid those from beneath to reach above (In pure DF style, you know? IN truth DF is about building fortresses to keep demons down below...after opening the door for their exit of course!) So they had planned the 'wards' to start working as soon as something was taken, and the dwarf statue of Moradin was just there to point out the way out: take nothing and all they'd end up fighting would be a few fire elementals/earth elementals and a couple of locked doors.

Back to the point at hand, I once more explained it to my 'brother'. His answer was:
"I honestly believe that my Barbarian was played perfectly. He is what I want him to be. The others just hate me for no reason."
The last sentence, in particular, refers to a particular brand of victimization he believes to be a subject to in every single campaign someone of the company masters. His characters are always the first to die, hence his belief that we all hate him and want to see him die just for the sake of it.
(Furthermore I add that sometimes my very own players killed his own character because he was acting like a child in game...example following.)
As you all know (Or hope you know) to 'disengage' a trap the roll is made by the Dungeon Master. Sometimes I forget this, and the player rolls the dice before I can remember it. In this circumstance, the first situation applies while my brother believed it was the second.
So he rolled and made a 2, plus his modifier giving him a measly eleven.
I told him: "You do not think there is a trap."
He replied: "Hey Barbarian, there's no trap! Come here and open the door!" (He's a thief in this one)
"Why? It's locked!" Barbarian with Int 16. (Another player)
"Nah, smash it!" (Thief!)
"Can you please unlock the door? What if there are enemies on the other side and hear us?" (Ranger)
"But naah, smash it! Come on we're losing time!" (Thief)
"Listen, unlock that door right now!" (Barbarian)
"No!" (Thief)
"Uh, guys...it's a stone door. Smashing it is kind of...hard?" (Dungeon Master)
"See? Unlock it!" Barbarian.
"I think that if you attack strongly with your warhammer you can do it." Thief replies.
"So there's a trap." The Ranger deadpans.
"No! I don't think there is one." Thief replied.
"Then unlock the door." (Barbarian starting to lose his patience)
"But I'm not sure."
"Enough." (after five minutes, the Cleric stands to attention) "Barbarian, do throw the thief against the door please." (Command)
"My pleasure!" (Barbarian chirping) "Eh HOP!" Grapple, grapple, to hit roll, trap sprung, thief evades the trap.
"See? There's a trap!" Cleric says calmly as the Thief (my brother) is now angry at him.
"You're going to die." The Thief (my brother) says.
Then he tries so, in the middle of the hallway, with the Barbarian wielding his axe.
He gets knocked out, (the group was merciful then, mind you!) and then in the middle of the night he frees himself, tries to gut the Cleric but gets offed by the ranger who was on guard.

Now, mind you, this happened when he threw the dice.
Another time, I'm the one who remembers that I have to be the one to throw the dice and...he does this, with every single door. I mean, sometimes I tell him there's a trap, and I tell him that he has 'unarmed' it. Yet...he always makes another one open the door (When the thief's job is to dodge traps, there's a reason they've got the feats to do so after all!)

Anyway, this 'fake victimization' aside, (because if the entire party asks you, thief, to do your job, just how is that making you a victim?) I'm afraid to say the decision has been reached to keep him out of the game table for the next session.
More riches and experience points for those who remain I suppose...

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“Well,” he said. “We’re in the Forgotten hunting grounds I take it. Your screams just woke them up early. Congratulations, Lyara.”
“Do something!” she whispered, trying to keep her sight on all of them at once.
Basileus clapped his hands once. The Forgotten took a step forward, attracted by the sound.
“There, I did something. I clapped. I like clapping,” he said. -The Investigator And The Case Of The Missing Brain.

Neonivek

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Re: How to make a D&D player stop being a decerebrate
« Reply #37 on: January 29, 2013, 06:35:42 am »

Oddly enough I once killed a PC (long story, he was mad but everyone felt it was justified) and we actually had a rule debate on whether or not I could make the Rogue "Helpless" while tied up.

Since the rules say he doesn't become flat footed while "Bound".

Yet I tied him up in feet of rope and chain and encased him in a bad and tied up the bag. Which in all reason leaves you helpless because you cannot move in any reasonable way. Which the DM said was fine and he was helpless but the player didn't. Also he did argue that I should have rolled my damage for the Coup, but he forgot my weapon was a weapon that enhanced coups.

You really can't please everyone and I find that avoiding player conflict is always preferable. I couldn't really avoid that situation though (The thief was caught stealing, assaulting, and attempting to murder someone and was put on trial as well where they proved he was guilty... I gave him a chance to prove his innocence but couldn't... then he tried to get away. So I couped)
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chaoticag

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Re: How to make a D&D player stop being a decerebrate
« Reply #38 on: January 29, 2013, 07:20:21 am »

It honestly sounds like your brother is incompatible with the group, so keeping him out the session is the best you can do. Since this is your brother, you likely won't be able to avoid a confrontation about it, so come game time, if he still shows up, have everyone at the table explain why they feel he doesn't fit with the group, and what they'd expect of him to act like if he wants to play with them. In another group, his way of playing things might fit right in, but in this one, it gets him killed, and he just gets another character in no time with the exact same stats. Speaking of, that sounds like bad form on your part, since it doesn't sound like it meshes with the feel of what you're running.

Past that, do mention that it's not just him playing, it's everyone, and he does need to consider how they feel about what his character does. If he can't do that, then he should not be playing with everyone. If the only person at the table that's having fun is him, then there's no good reason for you to continue GMing, and there's no good reason for the rest to continue playing, but either way, he can't be part of things.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: How to make a D&D player stop being a decerebrate
« Reply #39 on: January 29, 2013, 03:12:45 pm »

He was neutral good, they were all evil (varying alignments of evil)
Would have been better if he was true neutral.

"Hey PC, up for murder Mondays?"
"Maybe."
"OH FU-"

shadenight123

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Re: How to make a D&D player stop being a decerebrate
« Reply #40 on: January 29, 2013, 03:31:00 pm »

How about murder on mondays and going to an orphanage to adopt a kid on tuesday? Then you kill the orphan on wednesday and on thursday you help two parents adopt an orphan, then on friday you kill one parent, on saturday and sunday you rest, and since rest is a good thing on monday you murder the other parent and then adopt the kid on tuesday.
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“Well,” he said. “We’re in the Forgotten hunting grounds I take it. Your screams just woke them up early. Congratulations, Lyara.”
“Do something!” she whispered, trying to keep her sight on all of them at once.
Basileus clapped his hands once. The Forgotten took a step forward, attracted by the sound.
“There, I did something. I clapped. I like clapping,” he said. -The Investigator And The Case Of The Missing Brain.

codyorr

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Re: How to make a D&D player stop being a decerebrate
« Reply #41 on: January 29, 2013, 07:12:43 pm »

AGE? Anyone under 25 or so is a fool. I'm 28 and have already had 1 heart attack. (So when I'm 30, and probably have a second heart attack, anyone under 29 is and idiot. :D)

Anyway here's my D&D experience at the age of 15. Me and my friends sat right around here (where my ass is right now.) We set it up, let the smartest guy (who spent hundreds on manuals to not be used again) make up a plan, and set forth. Appearently a pimp moblie and I don't want to to go that way are bad responses but he did his best. The game killer was when I said, "Hey, won't carrying these things bring down my skills? Why doesn't Knate carry them since he's a barbarian and it won't reduce his skills?" Whoa, bad choice. Everyone joined the "make Knate carry our shit" program. It went a few turns before he went into a violent rage and I almost had to physically restrain him. It was AWESOME! Nobody killed anyone. We smoked some weed later.

See it was an awesome story and I didn't mean to be a dick or anything to anyone here (just Knate.) ;D
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shadenight123

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Re: How to make a D&D player stop being a decerebrate
« Reply #42 on: February 01, 2013, 10:35:18 am »

Updating events of recent:

This Saturday I will be missing another player.
Why you might ask?
Because my 'brother' brought up the 'unfairness' of everything to the other players (who were of course on my side) the result was that after having been beaten, repeatedly, on the argument (not beating physically mind you! Although it relates to why I'm one less player this Saturday...) he pointed out to one of my players how they were actually avoiding the discussion on how MY cursed shield was a custom made item that shouldn't be in the world!
Basically, he went on the 'an object that requires a million golden pieces to be removed is OP (overpowered) and cannot be put in a dungeon!
One of my players saw red (luckily it happened over facebook, or I'd be a brother less) and yelled out loud that he wouldn't be present this Saturday, since he'd probably kill my brother if he ever caught a whiff of him.

Now...plans for the perfect murder anyone?
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“Well,” he said. “We’re in the Forgotten hunting grounds I take it. Your screams just woke them up early. Congratulations, Lyara.”
“Do something!” she whispered, trying to keep her sight on all of them at once.
Basileus clapped his hands once. The Forgotten took a step forward, attracted by the sound.
“There, I did something. I clapped. I like clapping,” he said. -The Investigator And The Case Of The Missing Brain.

GlyphGryph

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Re: How to make a D&D player stop being a decerebrate
« Reply #43 on: February 01, 2013, 10:44:53 am »

Tell him your brother won't be there, and kick him out of the campaign. Srsly now. You're just prolonging the inevitable.
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shadenight123

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Re: How to make a D&D player stop being a decerebrate
« Reply #44 on: February 01, 2013, 10:46:45 am »

Oh I did that. He replied that he wasn't sure he wouldn't resist killing him if he even saw him once.
Basically my player tried to explain as easy as possible why he was wrong...and in the end my brother, since he was losing the argument, suddenly said: "Yeah but this means nothing, we were speaking about something else entirely: see! YOu're changing the argument because you know you're wrong!"
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“Well,” he said. “We’re in the Forgotten hunting grounds I take it. Your screams just woke them up early. Congratulations, Lyara.”
“Do something!” she whispered, trying to keep her sight on all of them at once.
Basileus clapped his hands once. The Forgotten took a step forward, attracted by the sound.
“There, I did something. I clapped. I like clapping,” he said. -The Investigator And The Case Of The Missing Brain.
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