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[joeclark77]

IRL this is almost certainly a photoshopped hoax.  Obviously.

[tahujdt]

I vote that we use the activists as bait. Together, we can put a stop to them!
Also, if you really object to using cats and dogs like this, then start in Africa, where the dog is a major source of protein. I don't mind, so much. It's sort of like living on the farm, and there being a difference between the cow you keep for shows, and the cows that you butcher.

[Tevish Szat]

Seeing that there's no blood at all and the puppy in question appears very well groomed despite the hook sticking out of its face and the assumption it was just stuck in the ocean to attract sharks or about to be?  Yeah, that particular image is probably a shop.

Furthermore, it saddens me that nobody is up in arms about fishing for sharks and gators in the first place -- most species of sharks, ESPECIALLY ones big enough to take a live dog as effective bait, are very much endangered, and while alligators are in some locales invasive pests, in others they are similarly threatened.

Also, the penalty that the petition asks for is significantly harsher than the penalty for rape in many, if not most jurisdictions.

~~~

But this is Dwarf Fortress.  We're a land that frequently raises "pet" animals like normal people raise pigs.  While our little alcoholics wouldn't think of hurting personal pets, unlike humans they see no attachment to stray members of the same species, and furthermore without the technology to spay or neuter Fluffy we find ourselves suffering dire problems from the overpopulation of domestic animals.

So, in the context of DF, I'll use puppies and kittens to lure goblins and their ilk into giant meat grinders.  If I take an ocean embark and can manage the engineering to do so, I'll use them as "Bait" to capture sharks, salties, and maybe even a giant sperm whale for my aquarium -- though as that mechanism is seldom lethal many more such animals will still go to the butcher's shop to fuel my food industry, my bone bolt production, my leather clothing industry, and the skull totem trade.

[Loud Whispers]

I love my pets and can't imagine people doing this to them.

Ninjad by Tevish, I agree with everything Tevish has said. Sharks are almost all endangered species, yet no one gives a fuck. Shooped images of adorable puppies in pain; people are demanding 10 year prison sentences.

Unnecessary harm is always a bad thing, but people really need to get their priorities in check.

There is nothing special about puppies or kittens. All are living things that should be give the same level of respect.

[k33n]

But, [gasp] what if I get the urge to do this IRL?  At the risk of derailing, I put forth that something has to be bait.


_{Stop assigning anthropomorphic qualities to animals.}

It has nothing to with anthropomorphism. It has to do with needless suffering of being capable of experiencing discomfort.

[Callista]

Exactly. An animal can suffer; humans are capable of understanding that the animal can suffer; therefore we have a responsibility to minimize suffering. Using live dogs as alligator bait does not fulfill that responsibility.

Using live ASCII dogs as giant ASCII sperm whale bait, though, is entirely permissible. 

[AllThingsLive]

That's pretty fucked, at least give a warning before I see a dog stabbed in the face with a hook.
We can't be oversensitive, but you can't say it isn't pretty fucked up to torture an animal as intelligent and human-like as a cat or dog. If for whatever reason they really do need to bait a shark or alligator (let's be real, it's never really necessary to bait sharks or alligators) use dead shit or at the most a pigeon.
 

[pisskop]

1) shock value.

2)  for those so attached to their pets, they feel a sense of agony at watching any creature fo the species. But that's a slightly different disscussion.

Exactly. An animal can suffer; humans are capable of understanding that the animal can suffer; therefore we have a responsibility to minimize suffering. Using live dogs as alligator bait does not fulfill that responsibility.

while I admire the passion here, and the logic, I fail to see any such responsibility.  perhaps the needless suffering of things.  I do not condone needless dogbait, yet to proclaim to want stop all suffering is excessive.  I'll not make such a committment.

at the most a pigeon.

Which brings me to a point I was tempted to make last night.  what if something else was used as live bait?  Surely [fish, my example] or birds feel pain?  Would euthanising a creature before using them as land chum be more humane?

[Rutilant]

I'm sorry for 'yelling' and I'd like to continue a discussion here without you thinking I'm a frothing activist;

1) shock value.

Well, that's kind of a sociopathic reason.

2)  for those so attached to their pets, they feel a sense of agony at watching any creature fo the species. But that's a slightly different disscussion.

I think they call this empathy, and I'm not sure why other people having it would be irritating enough to you that you'd need to go get their goat?

while I admire the passion here, and the logic, I fail to see any such responsibility.  perhaps the needless suffering of things.  I do not condone needless dogbait, yet to proclaim to want stop all suffering is excessive.  I'll not make such a committment.

I think the suffering is actually the point of dogbait, because a panicked dog thrown into the water will splash around and make a lot more noise and attract more attention than a fish just sitting on the end of a hook waiting to be killed the rest of the way.

Which brings me to a point I was tempted to make last night.  what if something else was used as live bait?  Surely [fish, my example] or birds feel pain?  Would euthanising a creature before using them as land chum be more humane?

Well, stuff with a simpler central nervous system is probably at the very least less likely to feel pain the same way a mammal does.



I understand now that your issue is with hypocrisy among animal activists who cry over their favorite animal but ignore ones they don't like, and I can respect that.   My particular issue is in using that as a justification for... Well, bad behavior.  Yes, yes, dwarf fortress is brutal.  In the end though it's a game and a dog is the letter 'd' and it's because we know that, that it's okay.

When we're talking about real life and forums however, it's different.  Forget about animal rights - what about callous disregard for other human's emotions, and intentionally causing negative ones in others for someone's own pleasure?  That's worse than using a puppy as bait.  That's sociopathy.

[pisskop]

T'was simply listing what I felt the reasons for the puppy picture was.  No harm, no foul, not upset.

I do not mean you any discomfort, and if you imply I discomfort others let them come forth.  I merely wish to input my opinions and observations.  Interesting you should mention sociopathy, though.

[Rutilant]

T'was simply listing what I felt the reasons for the puppy picture was.  No harm, no foul, not upset.

I do not mean you any discomfort, and if you imply I discomfort others let them come forth.  I merely wish to input my opinions and observations.  Interesting you should mention sociopathy, though.

Well, that's fair enough.  I guess I was letting more general gripes about people slip into the conversation than focusing on what was happening just in this thread.

Am I using the term sociopathy incorrectly?  If I'm goofing it up I'm happy to learn why, just because I don't want to sound like a buffoon, but it seemed to fit the description for intentionally antisocial behavior.

Again, I apologize for letting generalities slip into the conversation, I'm not specifically attributing all the stuff I mention to you, I just tend to go accidenally go off on tangential rants about related topics.

[Aspgren]

I have two things to say about this matter.

1. In-Game it is an awesome idea that has, indeed, been practised by me for some time. I've baited zombies, forgotten beasts, crundles ... you name it. If it eats adorable critters; I've baited it.
2. In reality this is unacceptable and, fortunately, a very uncommon and bizarre practice. Those who feel pain for the animals might want to read this article that mostly debunks the claim that adorable critters are being used as bait. http://www.snopes.com/critters/crusader/sharkbait.asp

[pisskop]

Nope, just I'd consider myself in a way sociopathic.  Not aligned with conservatves, not for the liberals, not in the middle either.  I find myself almost but not quite agreeing with just about all stances. . .  Jack of all trades, master of none, eh

[Tevish Szat]

T'was simply listing what I felt the reasons for the puppy picture was.  No harm, no foul, not upset.

I do not mean you any discomfort, and if you imply I discomfort others let them come forth.  I merely wish to input my opinions and observations.  Interesting you should mention sociopathy, though.

Well, that's fair enough.  I guess I was letting more general gripes about people slip into the conversation than focusing on what was happening just in this thread.

Am I using the term sociopathy incorrectly?  If I'm goofing it up I'm happy to learn why, just because I don't want to sound like a buffoon, but it seemed to fit the description for intentionally antisocial behavior.

Again, I apologize for letting generalities slip into the conversation, I'm not specifically attributing all the stuff I mention to you, I just tend to go accidenally go off on tangential rants about related topics.
Sociopathy is one term for Antisocial Personality Disorder, which is related "Psychopathy" as well.  Someone with Antisocial Personality Disorder may be witty, charming, and exceedingly good at manipulating the emotions of others.  They also lie, steal, fight, break the law, disregard the safety of themselves and others, are marked by high degrees of anger and/or arrogance, and perhaps more importantly for the diagnosis show no guilt or remorse for their actions.  In popular culture, Sociopathic or Antisocial Personality Disorder is often construed as simple (if complete) lack of empathy, but in reality the issue is a complex and somewhat poorly understood condition.

[Loud Whispers]

Well, stuff with a simpler central nervous system is probably at the very least less likely to feel pain the same way a mammal does.

No.

I think the suffering is actually the point of dogbait, because a panicked dog thrown into the water will splash around and make a lot more noise and attract more attention than a fish just sitting on the end of a hook waiting to be killed the rest of the way.

Does no one care that they're allegedly fishing for sharks? Sharks which are as intelligent as most mammals and birds, and very very endangered.

I understand now that your issue is with hypocrisy among animal activists who cry over their favorite animal but ignore ones they don't like, and I can respect that.

A lot of the world's most intelligent animals are classed as vermin or else slaughtered in the wild or farmed with impunity. There is a great level of ignorance concerned when animals that don't hold public pedestals are abused.

   My particular issue is in using that as a justification for... Well, bad behavior.  Yes, yes, dwarf fortress is brutal.  In the end though it's a game and a dog is the letter 'd' and it's because we know that, that it's okay.

Ultimately this is the case. Don't blur the line between a fantasy simulator of a hostile world and real life.