Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 [2]

Author Topic: Study on the effectiveness of Knives vs Swords  (Read 6208 times)

NW_Kohaku

  • Bay Watcher
  • [ETHIC:SCIENCE_FOR_FUN: REQUIRED]
    • View Profile
Re: Study on the effectiveness of Knives vs Swords
« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2013, 04:08:01 pm »

Of course if you were factoring in the reach of weapons then you would probably also want to factor in the opposite in the minimum effective range. If someone with a dagger manages to get inside the reach of someone with a halberd, then the person wielding the halberd can't do much to hit the person holding the dagger other then punching/kicking, but the person holding the dagger has the ability to still attack.

Actually, halberds are pretty good at closer quarters, as well.

As many of the medieval recreationists that stay at the Mount and Blade forums will tell you, there are plenty of techniques for even a spear user to strike back at someone getting in close.  (And that it's not terribly likely a knife fighter will actually get that close if the spear fighter is paying attention, since there's always the option to just step away and regain the reach advantage.) If nothing else, that haft is going to make a decent staff, and you can simply shove the assailant away or attack with the butt of the weapon. 

Halberds in particular, however, are a sort of swiss-army weapon, with a spear, pick, and axe head, and that axe head is there to be used with a grip higher up the weapon for closer-quarters combat than the spear.
Logged
Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
"And no Frankenstein-esque body part stitching?"
"Not yet"

Improved Farming
Class Warfare

i2amroy

  • Bay Watcher
  • Cats, ruling the world one dwarf at a time
    • View Profile
Re: Study on the effectiveness of Knives vs Swords
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2013, 08:17:58 pm »

@NW_Kohaku
Point taken. There are some weapons though (I'm looking at you pike!) that aren't that useful once a person gets within a certain radius. Sure a 14-foot long pike might be a useful weapon to stop anyone far away, but a fast moving person that manages to get under your guard could still make mincemeat of you (which is one of the many reasons pikemen tend to form walls, to make it more difficult for people to get close to them). This was also the reason why medieval pikemen were often also armed with swords, maces, or daggers, so that if someone got under their guard they weren't defenseless.
Logged
Quote from: PTTG
It would be brutally difficult and probably won't work. In other words, it's absolutely dwarven!
Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead - A fun zombie survival rougelike that I'm dev-ing for.

Loud Whispers

  • Bay Watcher
  • They said we have to aim higher, so we dug deeper.
    • View Profile
    • I APPLAUD YOU SIRRAH
Re: Study on the effectiveness of Knives vs Swords
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2013, 04:55:11 pm »

@NW_Kohaku
Point taken. There are some weapons though (I'm looking at you pike!) that aren't that useful once a person gets within a certain radius. Sure a 14-foot long pike might be a useful weapon to stop anyone far away, but a fast moving person that manages to get under your guard could still make mincemeat of you (which is one of the many reasons pikemen tend to form walls, to make it more difficult for people to get close to them). This was also the reason why medieval pikemen were often also armed with swords, maces, or daggers, so that if someone got under their guard they weren't defenseless.
No one ever got close to medieval pikemen. Or they would die. Too many pikes in their everything.

DF formations and orders would be nice, it'd give the captains something to do!

NW_Kohaku

  • Bay Watcher
  • [ETHIC:SCIENCE_FOR_FUN: REQUIRED]
    • View Profile
Re: Study on the effectiveness of Knives vs Swords
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2013, 08:55:17 pm »

Yes, but considering how combat works now, pikes are kind of stupid.  They are now treated as just really big spears, and maybe if you were herculean in strength, they might be, but real one-on-one combat against a lone pikeman would prove pikes stupid weapons to bring to a knife fight.

I2amroy is also right in that any professional pikeman or soldier whose general gave the slightest care about keeping alive would have a backup weapon.  Pikemen were often, however, conscripted peasants basically only given a sharpened log and told to wave the pointy end at the bad guys and hope you don't get killed for the sole purpose of creating a wood-and-meat shield between enemy cavalry and actually valuable units like crossbowmen.  Their secondary tactic for when they were caught at close quarters was to hope someone nearby died bloodily enough for them to smear it all over them and play dead.

If we are going to start seriously mechanically penalizing someone holding a 14-foot pole, it will mean that they will be completely unable to react to something simple like sidestepping around someone.  On the other hand, a 14-foot reach is basically enough to reach 2 or even 3 tiles if you reach, considering that we now have tentative 2x2x3 meter tiles.  (Each tile being roughly 6.67 feet wide or long, and 10 feet tall.)  That would make the whole notion of a "first strike" pretty real, and basically play out like reach weapons from D&D.
Logged
Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
"And no Frankenstein-esque body part stitching?"
"Not yet"

Improved Farming
Class Warfare

Kumis

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Study on the effectiveness of Knives vs Swords
« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2013, 05:06:23 am »

I've also wondered about the benefits/penalties of length of weapon when it comes to grappling.

If you're grappling on the floor with your adversary, you have a short sword and he a long sword, then you should have a higher chance to stab than him.
Also, considering a short sword is actually quite long I also think there's room enough for a gladius-like weapon; especially if all these range of attack / grappling / meat-grind battle formations ideas come into play.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2013, 05:42:30 am by Kumis »
Logged
Dodók Medtobór,
What are you trying to hunt?
Y u no find path?

Neonivek

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Study on the effectiveness of Knives vs Swords
« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2013, 05:23:41 am »

One issue Kohaku is you don't want to over compensate.

Spear users for example can short handle their weapon or stab from the waist.

A lot of distance weapons weren't stupidly useless up close.
Logged

AfterShave

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Study on the effectiveness of Knives vs Swords
« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2013, 01:20:38 pm »

Don't mind me, I was missed stuff....
« Last Edit: January 31, 2013, 01:22:48 pm by AfterShave »
Logged
Gotta love the DF forums. A statement like this anywhere else could land you a couple years of counseling.

This is an anagram of my name
      Highborn Jerk Monster

Loud Whispers

  • Bay Watcher
  • They said we have to aim higher, so we dug deeper.
    • View Profile
    • I APPLAUD YOU SIRRAH
Re: Study on the effectiveness of Knives vs Swords
« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2013, 03:25:35 pm »

but real one-on-one combat against a lone pikeman would prove pikes stupid weapons to bring to a knife fight.

Pikes were surprisingly effective in one on one combat.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Notwithstanding professional European mercenaries or Chinese/English martial artists. In a one on one fight, a good trained Pikeman would win.
They were the weapons that won wars until guns got big. Their medieval image as the conscript's weapon is more or less correct, but the Pike itself was by no means ineffective. It was rather vulnerable to cavalry and archer/crossbow fire; but not by fault of the Pike, but the people holding them. Then renaissance comes along and everyone's a professional.

The advent of this rigorous organisation, training and effective orders meant that pike blocks could now advance quickly in looser formations, close up to face off cavalry and change facing directions.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
And when they fought each other, everyone died.

I2amroy is also right in that any professional pikeman or soldier whose general gave the slightest care about keeping alive would have a backup weapon.  Pikemen were often, however, conscripted peasants basically only given a sharpened log and told to wave the pointy end at the bad guys and hope you don't get killed for the sole purpose of creating a wood-and-meat shield between enemy cavalry and actually valuable units like crossbowmen.  Their secondary tactic for when they were caught at close quarters was to hope someone nearby died bloodily enough for them to smear it all over them and play dead.
Generals who understood the value of Pikemen didn't care for their backup weapon. They carried shortswords for the most part, with some like the Landsknechts even employing good use of men wielding Zweihanders to fight within their own Pike blocks. But what was always doing the killing was the Pike. This also stands true to most armies across the world when they used spearmen too. A good general would care more about their training.
A well trained block of pikemen was more useful than a well trained block of swordsmen. The soldiers who were most likely in any army to be peasant conscripts were the archers, not the pikemen.
Pikemen at their peak were by far anything but meat shields; they were the core of the army that was capable of facing off everything. If an enemy unit like heavily armed infantry managed to get beneath and through their Pikes, their short swords were more or less useless; their formation would break, enemy units would overpower them and they would die against their better equipped foe. This was the case historically across the world.

If we are going to start seriously mechanically penalizing someone holding a 14-foot pole, it will mean that they will be completely unable to react to something simple like sidestepping around someone.  On the other hand, a 14-foot reach is basically enough to reach 2 or even 3 tiles if you reach, considering that we now have tentative 2x2x3 meter tiles.  (Each tile being roughly 6.67 feet wide or long, and 10 feet tall.)  That would make the whole notion of a "first strike" pretty real, and basically play out like reach weapons from D&D.
I would say that Pikes would be a lot like the armour user skill; an inversely proportional value between the skill and the ease of use of the weapon would be good.

NW_Kohaku

  • Bay Watcher
  • [ETHIC:SCIENCE_FOR_FUN: REQUIRED]
    • View Profile
Re: Study on the effectiveness of Knives vs Swords
« Reply #23 on: January 31, 2013, 04:20:38 pm »

One issue Kohaku is you don't want to over compensate.

Spear users for example can short handle their weapon or stab from the waist.

A lot of distance weapons weren't stupidly useless up close.

This is sort of zig-zagging, but a pike and a spear aren't the same thing.  Spears can be used with a short-shaft grip, but pikes are too heavy for all but the strongest people to wield them that easily.  For a spear, it may not be as versatile as the halberd, but it's also lighter than a halberd.  A spear-and-shield combination (with a spear capable of being wielded one-handed) is both highly effective for one-on-one combat, and actually one of the most common combinations throughout history.

I suppose that, instead of saying "like D&D" straight-up, it would be better to refer to it being like the way that duoms and spiked chains work in D&D, where it's both a reach and a non-reach weapon if you change the grip.

Pikes were surprisingly effective in one on one combat.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Notwithstanding professional European mercenaries or Chinese/English martial artists. In a one on one fight, a good trained Pikeman would win.

etc. etc.

While I'm not arguing the effectiveness of the pike in formations, my point was more on how cumbersome it would be in one-on-one combat, or more to the point of how DF usually has combat, a disorganized brawl of ten-on-ten where nobody respects formations or teamwork. Barring someone so stupidly strong they could just swing a log like a club, that's going to be a massive encumbrance and leave someone much more open and vulnerable, and does deserve penalties against someone moving laterally.  (And that it was a bad weapon for giving to random humans and goblins with minimal training who don't actually fight in formation.)

That said, I've certainly been trumped by research when it comes to medieval weaponry before.  If you can show some sources documenting pikes being used outside of formation combat effectively against infantry with one-hander weapons and shields, I'd like to see them.  Again, I'd expect a shield and shortspear user would trump a two-handed pike user in most non-formation combat.
Logged
Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
"And no Frankenstein-esque body part stitching?"
"Not yet"

Improved Farming
Class Warfare

Loud Whispers

  • Bay Watcher
  • They said we have to aim higher, so we dug deeper.
    • View Profile
    • I APPLAUD YOU SIRRAH
Re: Study on the effectiveness of Knives vs Swords
« Reply #24 on: January 31, 2013, 06:48:40 pm »

That said, I've certainly been trumped by research when it comes to medieval weaponry before.  If you can show some sources documenting pikes being used outside of formation combat effectively against infantry with one-hander weapons and shields, I'd like to see them.
This might take a while ;D

Mel_Vixen

  • Bay Watcher
  • Hobby: accidently thread derailment
    • View Profile
Re: Study on the effectiveness of Knives vs Swords
« Reply #25 on: February 01, 2013, 10:29:20 pm »

If i may chime in. Neither Talhofer nor Peter of Danzig seem to have much (or none) on pikes in theyr books - more on spears and lances. Especially how you go against them when you are duelling. Di Grasse has a bit more i think (also dual wielding) but i dont have a copy of his book.

I can attest from personal experience (not very much) that you can fend of a swordfighter with a 2 meter Spear. You can use it like a quarterstaff and given the right form of the spearblade you can do quite some cuting too. For the shorter variety of pike (~3 meters) i think that can still be true the longer ones not so much. You should try to keep your distance and changing grips should come natural.
Logged
[sarcasm] You know what? I love grammar Nazis! They give me that warm and fuzzy feeling. I am so ashamed of my bad english and that my first language is German. [/sarcasm]

Proud to be a Furry.
Pages: 1 [2]