Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[CaptainLambcake]

slaves are more expendable than dwarves.  tantrums=punishment/death/ etc. 

how would them not eating or drinking make it less realistic?  they already dont.  elves do eat, by the way.  goblins don't. 

[GreatWyrmGold]

slaves are more expendable than dwarves.  tantrums=punishment/death/ etc. 

There's ways around the "tantrums" thing, and fairly few jobs with high risk that you'd trust to slaves.
Just face it, dwarven society as it is in 34.11 doesn't really need slaves.

Oh, and slavery is a crime as bad as anything a dwarf can imagine. You haven't refuted that.

how would them not eating or drinking make it less realistic?  they already dont.  elves do eat, by the way.  goblins don't.

Goblins not eating never really comes up?

[NW_Kohaku]

I'd still just say that if goblins were doing whatever I wanted them to do, and I didn't have to feed them or keep them liquored up, why bother with dwarves at all, when I could use goblins to do all the work, and keep them happy with all the good quarters and such? 

Why are the goblins the "useless" ones when they're capable of doing all the same jobs?

[Scoops Novel]

What, exactly, is the appeal? It should either be fully realized or out for players, and i dislike how this has still not been mentioned. If anyone brings up Goblins being always chaotic evil, the thread should be locked even more so then it already does. There are better uses of development time.

[Naryar]

Why do people ask for slavery ? It will be implemented when goblin (dark) fortress mode will be officially implemented, as was extensively repeated by NW_Kohaku;

[Beast Tamer]

Perhaps because some people want a dwarf fortress with other races (multiracial forts) in which they assign those of other species (goblins, elves, humans) to do 'menial tasks' (hauling, the only one I can think of). They want the ability to punish the slaves (using unfortunate accidents, Captain of the Guard, and Hammerer) if they break the 'rules' (unfulfilled hauling mandate).

In essence, why the people that want slavery can't simply make a multi racial fort and assign all non-dwarves to hauling tasks and give them the career name of 'slave' is beyond me. There are much better uses of development time, like Novel stated.

Captain LambCake, the only argument you've been stating is "slaves are more expendable than dwarves because they're slaves". That's a great example of circular logic, they are because they are.

If you want Dwarven Slavery so bad, why don't you try modding it in yourself? Or ask one of the many players that enjoy modding?

And as for the argument that the game isn't less realistic because Goblins don't eat... I don't need to continue.

[10ebbor10]

Just as a note on the last thing, Goblins will probably need to eat in the future. Once Toady finds a quasirealistic way to feed them without them dieing out in worldgen.

[Beast Tamer]

I'd imagine he would. Perhaps he can have goblins thrive on less amounts of food than other species?

[Tsuchigumo550]

Slavery may be ethically dark, but isn't that dependent on degree? You could have more of an "integrate a lower class into society that isn't our race" or, a more goblin esque "the beatings will continue until morale improves."

I could see Toady implementing this as a "war criminal" system at the most, but a better implementation would be a change, even an overhaul of the crime system.

For instance, depending on who or what the prisoner of war was or is, they could be assigned different things:

Hauling/Cleaning/Menial Work: The prisoner or group of prisoners are watched by a guard dwarf or two as they work. It's slower than just having a dwarf squad do it and takes space, but is light and morally accepted by most races.

Imprison: The prisoner of war is jailed like any other criminal dwarf.

Execution: The prisoner is killed, often publicly (requires a workshop- such as gallows). Very few races do this, and the few that do do so rarely.

Release: The prisoner is released to the wild to attempt to make it to their home. Should they make it, and depending on the civilization, relationships will get better or worse.

Force Fight: The prisoner is forced into a military squad. They are imprisoned during idle times. Depending on their happiness, they will turn against you or actually fight, so it's important to keep them fed. Dwarves consider this unacceptable, but Humans will do this.

Integrate: The prisoner(s) will form into a new group, and can be zoned, maintained, and given jobs as such. Most of this group are cooks and fishermen, hunters and leatherworkers. They can be given a zone they must stay in or risk being jailed.

[Loud Whispers]

A more goblin esque "the beatings will continue until morale improves."

Slightly off topic, but this is brilliant and funny, as well as going well with the devlog's description of goblin armies trying to stop civilians from leaving the town they're in. The goblins are trying to be good rulers, but they just don't know how!

Conversely, Dwarf hammerers - the beatings will continue until morale improves...

[NW_Kohaku]

Just as a note on the last thing, Goblins will probably need to eat in the future. Once Toady finds a quasirealistic way to feed them without them dieing out in worldgen.

I thought that decision was final.

When he was talking about goblins starving, people in the forums were talking about ways that goblins could get food, especially since they were supposedly carnivorous.

There was talk about some sort of scavenger farming, where a cavern slime was used to feed a pig-like creature that was slaughtered for meat, and there was talk of things like cattle drives where goblins sent some herd beast out to devour everything in the area round a dark tower...

And Toady decided that he "couldn't see goblins farming", so they don't need to eat, they just eat people occasionally because they just like doing it.

[CaptainLambcake]

i like tsuchi's idea, except execution shouldn't be looked down upon.  they want to kill us after all.

[Scoops Novel]

You see, that's why I wouldn't mind it with goblins. Everyone's a slave. To be honest, even the overseer should be a slave when the latest demon comes along, and you have to organize an insurgency whilst secretly training your non-goblin inhabitants up to slay the demon (presumably because of being themselves lower demons incapable of doing anything but their orders). It will take nobles to a whole new level.

[Tsuchigumo550]

I like to look behind the "omg slavery". It's not so prevalent here, but there are plenty of people who see the "include slavery" topic and immediately jump to no. And I don't think that's a bad thing, if they have reasons beyond "it's slavery."

That's not a prevalent problem here as nearly all of Bay12 is sensible... not sane, but sensible.

Anyway, a system of degrees could widen the spectrum of slavery, and the system isn't completely slavery, it's wider than that. It's more of a system of jailing those of another race- the least harsh being release or integration to a lower caste, then imprisonment and menial labor, followed by forcing to fight or, after certain milestones are reached, "interrogation", and finally execution, at the worst.

I say execution is the worst simply by the nature of it- different methods could be different moral values: being drawn and quartered or pressed to death a very black and a hanging or beheading less so, and a quick, lethal poison (such as drinking hemlock) is the least morally offending.

[assasin]

I would like to see a wider range of social classes mixed in with a variety of political systems. ie new social mechanics that would actually give slavery a point.

For example, if dwarves tantrumed when they are unhappy milatary dwarves could beat them to make them stop. If tied to things like being able to force dwarves to work [by, say, sending out milatary dwarves to beat them up if they decide not to], it'd allow a sortoff spartan type society where there is a devide between the helots and the warrior class.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparta#Structure_of_Classical_Spartan_society.


Of course the real question is, "is it really nessesary?" I would say it depends. It would definately add more color to the game if players had a greater range of choices in the way they set up their forts. And I would definately say that having more political options [social classess, more advanced legal systems, diplomacy, etc]  is nessesary, just not urgent. And slavery would be a part of this.

When it comes to ethics the idea of all dwarves having the same set of ethics is weird. In rl life most humans see cannibalism as horrid. But theres still a minority who practice it. I'd prefer to see a random set of ethics for each civilisation, but each having a different chance for each one. It may be that dwarves thinking slavery okay is only five percent, but no halfway decent author would make such a one dimensional race where everyone agrees. Even authors who use archetypes and stereotypes as part of their style [like eddings] would have a lot of variation in individual opinion.