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[Slothman400]

A really horrible dwarfy idea I recently had; Goblin/Elf/Human Slavery.

Just like slavery during world-gen, invaders caught in cage traps could be put through a system like taming.
At this point they would do your fort's manual labor cheaper than dwarves(no need for alcohol).
Minor additions:
Could wear chains that make tantruming useless.
If slaves are living in more than meager rooms, dwarves get angry.
Invaders could free slaves of the same race.
Freed Slaves could fight the dwarves, or the invaders; depending on the quality of the training.
'Slave Driver' noble position.
Peace treaties require all slaves to be released, but well trained prisoners become free fortress members.
Finally, the thing that would make this feature useful: Selling slaves to caravans of other races. This would provide very profitable non-grazer livestock.

[Avo]

Suggested a lot before, dwarves have tag's that show dwarves believe slavery is unacceptable. With goblin fortress's or random ethic tag's you may see some slaves but I wouldn't be surprised if toady had ethical concerns that just kept them out forever.

[Hyndis]

Putting captured prisoners to work as haulers would certainly be beneficial to a fortress. I'd imagine that you'd also need some sort of security to keep them in line, but the captain of the guard already exists. Perhaps the captain of the guard (and his squad) could take care of unruly prisoners as well.

[CaptainLambcake]

yeah, but ethics tags can be modded.  i support prisoner labor, not slave labor.  make them work for 10 years, then release them, or suffer a large scale riot.

[assasin]

I'd like to see some variation in ethics based on events in world gen. Dwarves in poles start staring to death, cannibalism. every time a dwarf body is eaten it becomes slightly more acceptable. It may work similary with slavery. but I find that the cannabilism is a better examole.

[10ebbor10]

yeah, but ethics tags can be modded.  i support prisoner labor, not slave labor.  make them work for 10 years, then release them, or suffer a large scale riot.

There are so much things that can be modded, and there's no reason for Toady to go through great lengths to implement them all.

I'd like to see some variation in ethics based on events in world gen. Dwarves in poles start staring to death, cannibalism. every time a dwarf body is eaten it becomes slightly more acceptable. It may work similary with slavery. but I find that the cannabilism is a better examole.

Ethic variation is planned for human civs. I haven't heard of dynamic ethics though.

[sockless]

Can we just auto-lock any slavery suggestions?
It's the same with discussions about homosexuality and drugs. The same things keep getting discussed, people get angry, and then they get locked.

[sackhead]

sory posted on Wong topic

[GreatWyrmGold]

Suggested a lot before, dwarves have tag's that show dwarves believe slavery is unacceptable. With goblin fortress's or random ethic tag's you may see some slaves but I wouldn't be surprised if toady had ethical concerns that just kept them out forever.

This so very much.

yeah, but ethics tags can be modded.

So can materials with negative density and dwarves that spit flaming chunks of pus. So?

i support prisoner labor, not slave labor.

The distinction being?
Are the laborers willing, well-treated, and fairly compensated?

This is planned for if/when goblins and perhaps humans can be played, but until then stop suggesting this. Also, please freaking search! Just because you think you have an incredibly novel and amazing idea doesn't mean you don't need to check before suggesting something.

((Armok, I miss Footkerchief.))

[Aquillion]

Suggested a lot before, dwarves have tag's that show dwarves believe slavery is unacceptable. With goblin fortress's or random ethic tag's you may see some slaves but I wouldn't be surprised if toady had ethical concerns that just kept them out forever.

Remember, this is the Toady who made Liberal Crime Squad.  Not to mention Cross Stompers and I'm Voting for Myself (if you don't know, don't ask.)

The issue isn't real-world ethics, the issue is that there aren't really any dwarves in fantasy or fiction that practiced slavery -- they're generally portrayed as having a personal work ethic that prevents it.  Humans might, though, and IIRC there was some talk of social / ethical rules being changeable through play, so you could end up with a fortress of depraved and decadent dwarves who shave their beards, practice slavery, and so forth.

[assasin]

Remember, this is the Toady who made Liberal Crime Squad.  Not to mention Cross Stompers and I'm Voting for Myself (if you don't know, don't ask.)

The issue isn't real-world ethics, the issue is that there aren't really any dwarves in fantasy or fiction that practiced slavery -- they're generally portrayed as having a personal work ethic that prevents it.  Humans might, though, and IIRC there was some talk of social / ethical rules being changeable through play, so you could end up with a fortress of depraved and decadent dwarves who shave their beards, practice slavery, and so forth.

I guess it would depend on how flat you want your cultures to be. I wouldnt mind seeing different cultures like high elves, wood elves like currently, etc. etc. humans with variations like standard euro mediavel, roman style empire, etc. maybe most variations of dwarves would either involve differences in attachment to alchoho, rigidity of honour and work ethic, But it would be unrealistic and boring to assume zthat there are absoultely no morally ambiguous dwarves.

[Aquillion]

Sure.  And like I said, cultural variations are planned.  But at the same time, Our Dwarves Are All The Same -- a dwarf is defined by the game as "a short, sturdy creature fond of drink and industry."  If you allow their culture to drift to the point where they're no longer fond of drink and industry, I think they stop being dwarves.

I think that while the game should generate varied and interesting universes, it's also important that they have something recognizable about them.  Part of the reason Dwarf Fortress works is because we all know what dwarves are, so the game can just point at a little bearded icon on the screen, say "that's a dwarf", and we immediately know what to picture.

If you allow random variation among dwarves to the point where you could end up with a civilization that shaves their beards, that's going to get lost.  So I would prefer that dwarves remain somewhat monolithic, while humans vary a lot.  (This is also how it tends to work in fantasy universes, which Dwarf Fortress is trying to generate.)

Of course, the amount of cultural variation could also be something set via worldgen parameters.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Suggested a lot before, dwarves have tag's that show dwarves believe slavery is unacceptable. With goblin fortress's or random ethic tag's you may see some slaves but I wouldn't be surprised if toady had ethical concerns that just kept them out forever.

Remember, this is the Toady who made Liberal Crime Squad.  Not to mention Cross Stompers and I'm Voting for Myself (if you don't know, don't ask.)

The issue isn't real-world ethics, the issue is that there aren't really any dwarves in fantasy or fiction that practiced slavery -- they're generally portrayed as having a personal work ethic that prevents it.  Humans might, though, and IIRC there was some talk of social / ethical rules being changeable through play, so you could end up with a fortress of depraved and decadent dwarves who shave their beards, practice slavery, and so forth.

The bigger problem?
Dwarven views on slavery are stated in the raws. It. Is. Illegal.

Once/If dwarven cultural variations allow for that, or humans/goblins are playable in Fortress mode? Add it in. Until then? Don't bother.

[NW_Kohaku]

Honestly, I think that saying "dwarves view slavery as unthinkable" is the wrong argument to make against this.  (Every single one of these threads has that argument, and every single one of these threads has it lead straight into a "but we can mod it!" response.  The argument, bluntly speaking, is ineffective, and the reason why these threads keep rehashing the same thing over and over.)

As the simplest answer to the suggestion, the proper response is, "Slavery already is in the game (for goblins), and will be a part of the "fortress" mode when goblin citadels are a part of the game, it's just that the game isn't ready for it, yet. Hence, there's no point in suggesting what is already planned, but just waiting on further developments."

As the more complex answer:
Why would you even bother with slavery, aside from the fact that you can say to yourself that you're doing it, when there are none of the social bases for slavery present?

"Racial" slavery is the exception, not the rule.  Most slavery that existed throughout history was debt slavery - peasants could not pay back loans or their taxes, and as such, they (or their children, which were sold off first as property) were put into slavery to their lords or debt-holders.  The reason these slaves were used was because they could be put to work more cheaply than regular workers.  Even with all the guards it would take, you could get miners to excavate your ores more cheaply only paying for food and for the guards than it would take to pay free men to live in those awful conditions. 

Dwarves, however?  Why, exactly, would they need slaves to do their mining for them?  They willingly mine.  They love the mining.  It's an insult to the miners to say that they'll get the slaves to do the job they take pride in doing willingly. 

How are you going to save money by not paying your slaves when you aren't paying your dwarves anything in the first place, either?  They're all Happy Communists.

Even the racial slavery doesn't make sense, as you don't have the sort of social or ethnic stresses within the game's societies yet to make anything like prejudices a game mechanic. 

It's that the framework of the game isn't built up to actually support anything that makes the very concept of slavery anything more than a gimmick you could do just "for teh evulz".

[CaptainLambcake]

slaves could be used to haul things to the refuse pile, what dwarf wants to go through miasma?  they could also be used to mine out lava, who cares if they die?  they could also be a snack for your vampire duke.  i can think of plenty of reasons to have them.