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Author Topic: Just gonna leave this here.  (Read 2068 times)

Hubris Incalculable

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Just gonna leave this here.
« on: January 23, 2013, 09:10:47 pm »

« Last Edit: January 23, 2013, 09:14:45 pm by Hubris Incalculable »
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Rutilant

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Re: Just gonna leave this here.
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2013, 07:53:52 am »

THIS

Thanks for showing me this channel;  Now I know where my friend steals all his anecdotes from!
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monk12

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Re: Just gonna leave this here.
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2013, 12:07:30 pm »

I was wondering if somebody was going to post this. Particularly interesting is that DF ranks higher than all the "story based" games, which is really where I feel video games shine as expressions of art.

But yeah, although I wasn't super impressed with this episode Idea Channel ranks among my favorite things.

WaffleEggnog

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Re: Just gonna leave this here.
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2013, 04:21:36 pm »

Was waiting for someone to bring this up. Not many "big" channels on Youtube really mention DF in anything other than a few tidbits, and seeing how Idea channel has more subsriptions than this game has players, maybe it will attract some fresh fortressers? Looking forward to it!
« Last Edit: January 27, 2013, 12:45:55 am by WaffleEggnog »
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Just gonna leave this here.
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2013, 08:34:08 pm »

Was waiting for someone to bring this up. Not many "big" channels on Youtube really mention DF in anything other than a few tidbits, and Seeing how Idea channel has more subsriptions than this game has players, maybe it will attract some fresh fortressers? Looking forward to it!
One channel? Not just yet. A couple more, and it could be more than a few fresh Forts, it could be a whole new audience.

NW_Kohaku

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Re: Just gonna leave this here.
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2013, 06:32:56 pm »

I was wondering if somebody was going to post this. Particularly interesting is that DF ranks higher than all the "story based" games, which is really where I feel video games shine as expressions of art.

Honestly, I believe that's actually where games are at their worst.

I think the best way to explain this is to use Errant Signal's video on why there is so much violence in video games to set this up.

Computer games are great at simulating spacial problems and complex mathematical algorithms as a type of game, and awful at managing to make its great advantage as a storytelling medium (the interactivity) actually play well with the desire to tell a story.

Hence, games that try to tell a story are often crippling how well they play as a game by forcing a player to drop their controller and just sit there listening to the game lecture them for a few hours.  (I'm looking at you, XenoGears and Metal Gear Solid.)

It's games like The Sims, Mount and Blade, and, yes, Dwarf Fortress, that try to move beyond trying to just ram a narrative down the player's throat, and instead let the player create the narrative of their own choosing as their own reaction to the world around them.

And that's not exactly the same thing as giving up on the notion of having a developer have a say in what narratives get told, or even if some messages get through, either: It's hard to play any sort of game of DF or any mod thereof without coming away with a real sense that this world is a violent and dangerous place, and that understanding the way the world will react to your changes before you do something is the key to survival. 

Games can tell a fantastic message without having any sort of narrative. (Just as visual art does.) Shadow of the Colossus is constantly brought up as a great art piece, but it has a severely limited narrative and chain of events where basically everything that makes it artistic are the aesthetic choices that create the sense of scale, wonder, and isolation you feel while playing it.

There's also a much more subtle way for a game to be artistic, however. 

Spec Ops: The Line is semi-famous for deconstructing the whole notion of how violence is handled in a First Person Shooter.  (Errant Signal has a great video on that, as well.) One of the things that's really critical to its message, and what it's saying the message of the other FPS games, whether they realize it or not, is that when you reduce all your interactions with a game to different "kill things" buttons, it fundamentally colors the way in which you see the game world.  When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.  If all you can do is kill things, every in-game problem is always presented to the player as though the natural reaction is to just find the right "bad guy" to kill.  But the real core underlying problem in that game was a sandstorm and a lack of water... and you can't shoot those things. Trying to kill your problems only made your problems progressively worse because they weren't problems that violence could solve.

Now, compare that to Portal.  The tagline of the game is "Now you're thinking with portals" for a reason.  You don't have a (regular) gun. You have portals.  All your problems are solved with portals.  The player is trained through that game to immediately start looking for ways to use portals to solve whatever obstacles they are confronted with in those games. 

Portal, notably, is an FPS.  Just like those Call of Duty games that Spec Ops was making fun of.  It's an FPS where you cannot take any direct violent action.  The whole point is that the standard rules of the genre don't apply, and it forces a complete change in the way that you even start looking at the problems around you.  You can't shoot your problems to death, you have to portal your way around them.

That's just the way that the mechanics of the game make you play it - In Dwarf Fortress, you can't directly order your dwarves, so in a disaster or a panic, you may lose all control over your fortress, but as long as you are in a state where you are in control, you can modify the land to preemptively engineer the solution to the problem before it even arises.  (I.E. build your fort with only one heavily fortified entrance to forestall most of the danger of a siege.  Chain guard dogs to the entrance to prevent thieves from getting in. etc.)

In Dwarf Fortress, there's this giant, complex, interactive web of cause and effect.  There's this huge well of information about the real world waiting for you to discover because you suddenly have an interest in why hematite is found limestone but not basalt to fuel an interest you never would have otherwise had in geology.

Dwarf Fortress is art not because of any story it tells, it's art because of the story it lets you construct with what you can unearth from within its mechanics - it's a sort of treasure hunt, where the joy of the game comes through the act of discovery. 



I would also like to end this by referencing the Aesthetics of Play video by Extra Credits. (DF is even mentioned in that video.)  We fundamentally approach games (and prefer different genres) because of the ways in which we can experience or express ourselves through that game. This is something a completely-scripted movie or book or painting can't do, and as such, is the greatest set of tools in gaming's arsenal to overcome its great weakness of spacial dependency. 

I just referenced why I love DF for its Discovery and its (player-created) Narrative.  There are also plenty of people who love Expressing themselves with construction projects, and those who play for the Challenge of making increasingly more difficult sieging hostile monsters attack their fortresses, and so on. 

I think it's actually a straight-jacket we put on ourselves when we talk about games as only having meaning through their narratives.  All those core game aesthetic possibilities have artistic merit, but it's because we have this "a movie, but with interaction" mentality that we cripple ourselves to forcing players to sit through cutscenes after going through scripted, linear levels. 

Skyrim, for example, has shit for a narrative.  It has fantastic aesthetics and an open world to explore, along with the massive freedom to be whoever you want, and change the game through modding in incredible ways.  It even has a tremendous amount of backstory lore that completely puts the supposed main game narrative to shame (and actually puts the whole of what you have done into completely different context and warps the meaning utterly when you realize what it means to be in a mythic subjective reality and take on the mantle of a God).  Skyrim is much better art than most games trying to lecture you for hours (again, I'm looking at you, Metal Gear). 

So I'm going to say that there's two paths (that are not mutually exclusive) towards creating games that are great art that actually focus upon the strengths that a game has - the aesthetics (I.E. Shadow of the Colossus) and the meaning that the systems/the mechanics instill into the player without having to tell the player anything.  (That is, Portal and DF.) Leave the narratives to books - the book will always be better at that.



EDIT:
« Last Edit: January 27, 2013, 07:13:55 pm by NW_Kohaku »
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monk12

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Re: Just gonna leave this here.
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2013, 09:59:51 pm »

Thanks for those interesting links, particularly since they give me the vocabulary to clarify my meaning.

The thing that interests me about video games as art is the interactive element. Don't get me wrong, there's plenty of games I enjoy as art due to their beautiful aesthetics, evocative art design and wonderful music- it's just that there's other genres of art that do those things as well, with special mention going to movies/film for doing all three. The thing that video games do that not many other forms of art do is the interactivity.

It allows a degree of give and take between the creator and the player that, to me, is almost like a nonverbal conversation. Some games that bill themselves as art do have something to say, though the clumsier ones tend to beat you around the head with it. What's also interesting is when playing a game and getting to know it reveals worldview biases of the creator, whether intentional, subconscious, or an unintended consequence of the game mechanics- I haven't played Patrician, but I'll go out on a limb and guess that they weren't setting out to make a game extolling the glories of capitalism. That's what I really meant (and lacked the ability to express) when I talked about games as "story"- I'm not so interested in the excuse plot (however well-written it may be) or the narrative experience as I am in seeing how things work, and why, and what that implies in the broader sense.

Other media do have interactivity (as a friend of mine often explains in relation to his band,) but the unique advantage of video games is that they allow a single, private experience that can have different meanings depending on how the player approaches the game. Individual games can appeal to multiple Aesthetics of Play, and not only does that allow wildly divergent game styles but it also results in different players drawing different experiences and different conclusions from the same core mechanics.

It's particularly interesting to me because that's how I feel people really are- we all deal with the real world, which can be described as a ludicrously complex and layered series of rules, but we all interact with it in different ways and have different experiences, and that's where different worldviews come from.

Obviously other people are drawn to games as art for reasons different than mine, but, y'know, that's kindof my point. "Wondrous strange."

NW_Kohaku

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Re: Just gonna leave this here.
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2013, 12:42:29 am »

Actually, I think that it was, at least partially, the goal of Patrician's developers to gush at how wonderful capitalism is. 

The whole point of the game is that merchants are the engine by which Europe drove itself out of the Middle Ages. 

It's not completely glorifying things, either - you have plenty of options to do scummy things just to get ahead, including even hiring pirates to take out competition, or engaging in piracy, yourself.  There are smuggling missions and the like where your reputation (and a hefty fine for breaking the law) are at stake, but so is a large sum of money for completing it well.

However, for an honest merchant, everything that you do that makes you money also improves the local (and to a more subtle extent, regional) economy, and is essentially the difference between the towns you live in being wealthy and prosperous and flooded with happily employed consumers and having a nowhere backwater that is constantly at the brink of starvation is the fact that merchants are there.

Patrician 3, the one I played, is even called "Rise of the Hanse", and starts you off in the city of Lübeck, referring to the Hanseatic League, which is directly credited with Nothern Europe's later rise to power and prominence over most of Europe and the world beyond.



For something completely different, I think that the "Core Gameplay Aesthetics" concept is something far more important than most people give it credit for (and which many people often get angry about when I try to explain), because it means that, at fundamental levels, it means we are approaching games with entirely different goals in mind.

If people have different goals, they will never agree to the same solutions to perceived problems because they will never agree on what the real problems are.  (This is, often as not, the reason behind most "intractable" conflicts like politics and religion - people are applying entirely different philosophies and values towards things without understanding or wanting to understand the values of the other.)

It's why, back with the "should dwarves have to clear rubble" argument, I was constantly trying to reframe the argument based upon that trio of playstyles in the playstyles thread.  Those three playstyles map pretty cleanly to Core Gameplay Aesthetics: What Capntastic called "Gamist" is the Challenge aesthetic, what he called "Constructionalist" is the Expression aesthetic, and what he called "Simulationist" is, when you dig right down to it, is the Discovery aesthetic.  (That is, you are "exploring" the game in order to learn and discover how the whole thing operates.)  (Also, it's the part of the Extra Credits video that actually references DF - discovery of new emergent game mechanics.) 

The only thing I think is worth adding is the Narrative aesthetic, for those who enjoy the game for the stories players can create by adding their own meaning to the events that take place.  (That is, Cacome and Tholtig and the guy who made this thread, much less the legends like Boatmurdered.)  I'm pretty sure Boatmurdered is perhaps the single greatest cause for players to start understanding and playing DF.

When it comes to making something "art", you have to understand what sort of person would be playing it, and why they would want to be playing it, what it's there for.  It's like understanding why people go to horror movies if you're going to make a good horror movie.

DF is a strange land where many of these aesthetics intersect because it's so expansive... and it does cause conflicts among the fans when they clamor for what is "really important" and "what should be done next". 

But back more to the point, I honestly think that on many levels, DF is more "performance art project" than "game".  Toady obviously doesn't put much effort into things like game balance or the like.  He's more interested in creating these models and simulations and things that other games just don't do.

It's why, since I've been away, I've been playing all these lovely little independent sandboxy games that have been springing up all over the place, lately.  In much the same way that Portal and Spec Ops: The Line were about completely turning around what the notion of an FPS could be, Dwarf Fortress may have its greatest effect as simply a guide to what games can actually do when we slip the straitjacket of linear narrative off and let procedural content and player creativity take the wheel. 
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Eric Blank

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Re: Just gonna leave this here.
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2013, 07:12:03 pm »

Kohaku, why must you write an essay about it every time you come across an opinion you dislike? So many words... ;_;

You must be a necromancer! :P
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Just gonna leave this here.
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2013, 08:45:08 pm »

Kohaku, why must you write an essay about it every time you come across an opinion you dislike? So many words... ;_;

You must be a necromancer! :P

1.  I don't dislike what Monk is saying.

2.  I enjoy thinking about topics, and putting my thoughts to words.  Forums exist for those who enjoy discussion.
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Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
"And no Frankenstein-esque body part stitching?"
"Not yet"

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Loud Whispers

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Re: Just gonna leave this here.
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2013, 02:57:06 pm »

2.  I enjoy thinking about topics, and putting my thoughts to words.  Forums exist for those who enjoy discussion.
And very good discussion for that matter.