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[timferius]

I don't get the hate on F2P... I played WoW for a year or two. at 15 dollars a month (ish?), I spent about 360 dollars! With a good F2P game, you can spend nothing, 10 bucks, 50, and you're almost always giong to spend less than a sub.

[Knight of Fools]

You find "game addiction" with any game that has a Skinner Box approach to it, though: F2P, Pay2Play, or even games like the Sims. It's sad that people fall into that, but you can bet that they'd be looking for some other form of escapism if they didn't have games. It's partially the fault of both parties: One doesn't know when to stop, the other (Inadvertently or intentionally) takes advantage of that.

You can't really blame gaming companies, though, as I'm sure most are not intending to make a bad situation worse. It's the same position pharmaceutical companies are in: You don't stop making NyQuil just because a few folks are making drugs out of it. Should developers change how they make games just because a few people are abusing them?


This, of course, is completely different if a company is targeting the demographic that doesn't know how to control their gaming urges, though. I'm not defending that one bit, and think that such companies should be avoided even by folks who can control their game time.

[Levi]

Well, thank you for your creative insult. I really apreciate it.

I apologize, I'm not trying to offend anyone specifically.  But even Valve isn't guilt free.  They have at least one psychologist on board that probably spends a significant amount of time trying to figure out the right circumstances to get people to spend money.  They've introduced crates to put in the thrill of gambling.  They constantly adjusted price points and crafting costs to see what would drive people away and what would suck them in.  They've probably done half a dozen other things like that I'm not aware of.

In the end, if you are having fun then don't listen to what anyone(expecially me) says, but I think its important to understand that these companies ARE trying to manipulate the crap out of you and I'm not comfortable with that.  I don't think anyone should be comfortable with that.

[Graknorke]

We live in a society where just about everybody is trying to manipulate us.
See: media. All of it.

[Levi]

We live in a society where just about everybody is trying to manipulate us.
See: media. All of it.

Doesn't make it right.     I don't subscribe to cable either.

[Neonivek]

We live in a society where just about everybody is trying to manipulate us.
See: media. All of it.

Doesn't make it right.     I don't subscribe to cable either.

As well even with many forms of advertisement we have towed the line and said "No you are not allowed to do this".

[ndkid]

We live in a society where just about everybody is trying to manipulate us.
See: media. All of it.

Doesn't make it right.     I don't subscribe to cable either.

Also see: Forums. All of them. Heck, in some of them, there are people trying to manipulate you into thinking that manipulation is bad! ;-)

[Levi]

I'm not making money off of it though, cause I'm a chump.   

[alexandertnt]

That guy might be more right than he thinks. Lots of Chinese p2w games are funded by rich twenty-somethings who have no desire to do anything but game their way to the top with money. No job, no hobbies, that kind of thing. Just lots of parents money.

Similarly you have people who quit their jobs and their lives just to play these kind of games. It's a pretty big social pandemic here in Asia.

More right? His argument boils down to "companies are manipulative and trying to make money" (you don't say?) and the people who buy them are *insert lots of censored words here* whose parents hate them.

When people get addicted to normal games its totally fine (some people even use it as a badge of honour) but when it is a F2P game they become gullible.

So, why could you not consider F2P games hobbies, much like normal games can be considered hobbies.

They have at least one psychologist on board that probably spends a significant amount of time trying to figure out the right circumstances to get people to spend money.

but I think its important to understand that these companies ARE trying to manipulate the crap out of you and I'm not comfortable with that.  I don't think anyone should be comfortable with that.

These points hold true for almost every significant sized company on the planet, regardless of what they sell.

[umiman]

I'm talking about people starving their children to death while playing.

[Levi]

With normal games, a company needs to try to make a game that is fun and polished so they get good reviews and customers purchase it.  They don't always succeed and there is often shady stuff in how they advertise their game, but the core of it is that they need to try to make a good game to sell it.  Much like any other product.  Sure they try their best to get you to buy it, but once you own it you can sit back and enjoy it without the constant pandering or advertising in game. 

With free to play, the business model is essentially trying to addict you, and then frustrate or tempt you into spending money.  There are lots of ways they can do this.  One of the more common ways is to make a game interesting and fun at the start, and then after a few days of play they start putting in barriers and time wasters and grinds that you can pay to get past easier.   Usually these are done as Skinner Box.  You mostly get in the habit of playing, rather than actually have fun playing.

The point is under the free to play model they have no reason to ever stop manipulating, pandering, and generally trying to sell you on more stuff.  I can't stand that sort of thing when I'm playing a game. 

When people get addicted to normal games its totally fine (some people even use it as a badge of honour) but when it is a F2P game they become gullible.

If I get addicted to a normal game, I'm not constantly shelling out money.  And I'm certainly not shelling out money on silly things like hats or better weapons.  Even if you consider gaming as a whole an addiction I'm at least buying games on my terms, not playing on the companies terms.  I don't consider buying games to be on the same scale as buying hats or experience boosters or powerful weapons.  A game is great thing!  Paying for a virtual hat in a game is sketchy.

[Knight of Fools]

Then don't pay for it?

[freeze]

I think LoL/DotA2 are great examples of a skill barrier that exists and cannot be handwaved away.

[darkflagrance]

Then don't pay for it?

As long as the video game industry continues to produce games that do not rely on IAPs, this should indeed remain an option. Is the real fear not the present state of games, but what might happen in the future if EVERY game becomes reliant on IAPs?

[alexandertnt]

The point is under the free to play model they have no reason to ever stop manipulating, pandering, and generally trying to sell you on more stuff.  I can't stand that sort of thing when I'm playing a game. 

When people get addicted to normal games its totally fine (some people even use it as a badge of honour) but when it is a F2P game they become gullible.

If I get addicted to a normal game, I'm not constantly shelling out money.  And I'm certainly not shelling out money on silly things like hats or better weapons.  Even if you consider gaming as a whole an addiction I'm at least buying games on my terms, not playing on the companies terms.  I don't consider buying games to be on the same scale as buying hats or experience boosters or powerful weapons.  A game is great thing!  Paying for a virtual hat in a game is sketchy.

purchasing "silly things" is purely a matter opinion. Most hobbies have you shelling out money constantly (hobbies can be expensive!).

My main argument was against that ridiculous post and the viewpoint that F2P games are somehow an invalid source of entertainment, and/or that the people who play them are gullible *insert strawman from that post*, and that the companies who make them are just after your money (which A: Applies to basically every company outside of F2P games, and B: DURRRRRRRRR).

Its totally fine not to like F2P games, hell I don't like them. That does not mean that most people who play F2P games are anything like that post made them out to be. That post mostly just emotionally charges anyone who agrees that F2P games suck.

As someone who has played F2P games in the past (not all of them suck, just most of them ), I do not feel even slightly "educated" by his post.

I'm at least buying games on my terms, not playing on the companies terms

This is legally false, you are not buying a game, you are purchasing a licence for the game fully under the terms of the company. Any game you own on Steam can be taken away from you without an explanation. That was their terms not yours.

I'm talking about people starving their children to death while playing.

These are tragic but extreme cases.

People who quit their job, or starve their children to death to play any game have a very serious problem. The game may also unfairly manipulate the players. However, he was not "onto" this at all, he just raged against F2P games and offended F2P gamers with all sorts of nasty verbal abuse.