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[Levi]

I think TF2 would have been better off quality-wise without Valve's attention.

They DID make great money off their push into F2P, but I think it was a terrible way to do F2P, and ruined the game for many of us.

Compare it to how they implemented microtransactions for Dota 2, which is a million times better and is one of the only two games I've ever seen that does F2P in a way that doesn't bother me.

[Werdna]

I'm just curious Levi: what specifically ruined TF2 for you, in the transition?  I've not played Dota2, only LoL.

[miauw62]

Technically, Dota 2 is not F2P. If it weren't for the fact that there is on average 2.87 dota keys per living person.

[Levi]

I'm just curious Levi: what specifically ruined TF2 for you, in the transition?  I've not played Dota2, only LoL.

I don't like the idea of being able to buy things that affect gameplay.  Its partially a personal hangup.

A lot of it is the manipulation that bothers me.  I watched as Valve steadily increased crafting costs, limited drops and made the game more focused on grinding for loot than actually playing the game.  They added barriers to play and put in sleazy things like gambling(crates).  They started adding gameplay items that were only available in the store.  It went from feeling like a balanced and competitive shooter to being a game entirely focused on separating me from my money(which I never gave them a cent).

I don't like feeling like I'm being manipulated, it makes me angry.  I want to play a game, not be pandered too.

I'm a firm believer that a competitive game must have fair play.  Buying items ruins that.  I know the advantages are small, but I don't care.  Nobody would take a football seriously if they could pay 10,000 dollars to move the football 5 feet further at the start of the game, and I can't take TF2 seriously when some guy doesn't have the same options I have.

-----

Now in Dota 2 and Path of Exile (and I suppose in a way Quake Live), the only thing you can buy with your money is cosmetics and account features.  Since the microtransactions are entirely separate from the gameplay, the dev's have no reason to muck with balance or put in artificial barriers.  They can focus on just making the game fun.  This is the only right way to do F2P.  Every other F2P game is complete garbage in my eyes, and not worth a second of my time.

[miauw62]

Except that weapons just slightly change your playstyle and don't actually give you an advantage over other players. There also is no such thing as grinding. You play the game, you get weapons. There is nothing that requires you to get any new weapons to be effective, you just need skill.

And what do you mean by competetive game? You're playing matches that last an hour at most and don't in any way influence anything in the TF2 universe.

I really don't feel obliged to buy anything in TF2. The only real advantage buying something gives you is an increased backpack size and making dropped items tradeable. Especially considering that they are constantly bringing out new content.


E: And honestly, saying a game is garbage simply because it is F2P is pretty stupid, and you could be missing out on some fun games that way.

[Levi]

And what do you mean by competetive game? You're playing matches that last an hour at most and don't in any way influence anything in the TF2 universe.

See, people don't even know what competitive means anymore because of these stupid games...  Who cares if there is any influence in the TF2 universe.

E: And honestly, saying a game is garbage simply because it is F2P is pretty stupid, and you could be missing out on some fun games that way.

Nah, there are plenty of great non-F2P games.  Even ignoring the gamut of F2P games I still can't play all the ones I want to try because their are so many.

[miauw62]

Then would you please explain what it does mean? You're using the fact that I don't know what it means against TF2 for no good reason.

[Levi]

Two or more people(or teams) playing against each other.

Edit:  Actually that reminds me of another thing.  Before they introduced microtransactions, pretty much any server I played on would actually have people playing the game.  As they started to put more of this collecting crap into the game, people seemed to care less and less about actually playing.  People would jump up and down doing nothing or mindlessly just eat sandviches all game.  The focus on actual competition seemed to disappear as time went on.

[miauw62]

Alright the, I guess. I still don't entirely get your point.

The reason I'm not bothered by item drops and the likes is that when I kill someone, it's because of skill and luck. And by luck I don't mean random dice, I mean just coming strolled out the enemy base as a spy at the time a lone heavy is standing on the bridge. Items complement a playstyle, but you always need your skill to actually use it. Using, to give an overpowered example, the pomson isn't going to skyrocket your position to the top of the scoreboard. What IS going to do that is smart sentry placement and skill. Hell, I got to the top of the scoreboard with default everything except for the gunslinger. Minisentry goes on high spot with sight on commonly used enemy path, dispenser and teleporter go in secure spot. This reminds me that I forgot something: you also need tactics. But those can be counted with skill, I guess.

[Levi]

Yeah, don't get me wrong, TF2 is 98% skill based no matter how you look at it (and I was awesome at it, ha!).  Its the 2% that isn't that bothers me.    And its a shame, because they showed they could have done it right like Dota 2 if they wanted too.

[Werdna]

Thanks Levi, I understand your view even if I don't agree with it.  I'd also prefer F2P's to stick to the cosmetic as much as possible, but I just wonder how many can get away with that economically.  For me its about "pressure to pay", as miauw described: LoL and TF2 hit that sweet spot, where I feel no pressure to pay at all.  Perhaps because of that, every once in awhile I do, and I don't feel badly at all.  Planetside 2 however irritates me - there are several unlocks that have huge effects on gameplay, and it pisses me off they want $7 for them.  MWO irritates me a little, as mechs cost an outrageous amount.  I feel both are gouging, and I would've spent more instead of grinding stuff out, if they had lowered prices.

Miauw, with re: to competitiveness, I understand where Levi is coming from.  TFC was an order of magnitude more competitive than TF2, with highly organized leagues for ladder play should you want something beyond pubstomping.  But the static nature of the classes and weapons are what allowed that.  TF2 isn't nearly competitive, with its menagerie of weapons and styles, and its heavy shift from CTF to A/D maps.  I'd argue though that TF2 was broken for highly competitive play right from the start due to game design reasons though, and F2P only increased the problem.  But, compared to TFC, TF2 has a much superior "pub" game.  Its not the same thing over and over, with all that variety.  Ultimately pub games are what fill servers and get people in the store; league play is secondary.

And its a shame, because they showed they could have done it right like Dota 2 if they wanted too.

Levi, don't you think some of this is hindsight though?  Dota 2 came after TF2, so maybe they have learned something.  F2P is still in its infancy, relatively speaking.

[Levi]

Yeah, but they should go back and fix it, haha!

I'm a bit bitter about TF2 specifically because I liked it so much originally.  Its hard to see something you loved so much turn into something you hate.

[Levi]

A fantastic rant I found on why F2P sucks.   

[Graknorke]

So what he's basically saying is "If you like F2P games then you're a sucker and a moron."
Because that's totally fair and accurate for everybody amirite.

[frostshotgg]

Just because he's right doesn't give him the right to be a huge jerk about it. "Yeah you're all retarded hahaha" is not a good way to make a point.