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[coolio678]

If you think a game is not worth what you're paying for it, then don't buy it.

The issue is that games do not easily have replacements that foods, books, hardware, ovens, fridges, movies, paintings, and other products do.

If you don't buy very specific games you can often be locked out of an genre for years or forever in some cases.

Meaning you have to take what comes along with it for better or ill.

It is a lot more complicated then just "Gamers are entitled" as often this is more like extortion.

wait! I figured it out! maybe the response is always "entitlement" because we use the word "complaining." Maybe we could prevent it by using something a bit more classy to describe it, like civilly critiquing the business models. Any takers?

[Neonivek]

wait! I figured it out! maybe the response is always "entitlement" because we use the word "complaining." Maybe we could prevent it by using something a bit more classy to describe it, like civilly critiquing the business models. Any takers?

Entitled is always the standard response against ANY complaining.

Yet the trick is that Entitled is an insult for something that is not really that insulting since it just means: You believe you deserve better.

So if you go to a restaurant and they don't clean the dishes, the food is substandard, the service stinks, and the bill is much too high and you complain. you ARE being entitled. You are by definition believing that you deserve better service, food, clean dishes, and cheaper food. It doesn't matter if you deserve it or not.

So remember whenever someone uses the word it is basically trying to spin anything you say into a negative thing.

You know who believed they were entitled? EVERYONE! It isn't a new phenominon. Human nature is entitlement.

So basically anytime someone says the word "Entitled" you can actually outright ignore them.

[itisnotlogical]

You know, how come consumers of other products and media aren't entitled? How come moviegoers aren't "entitled" for criticizing movies? It's a weird label and I haven't seen it used in quite the same way, except to describe gamers and their criticisms of the industry.

[Neonivek]

You know, how come consumers of other products and media aren't entitled? How come moviegoers aren't "entitled" for criticizing movies? It's a weird label and I haven't seen it used in quite the same way, except to describe gamers and their criticisms of the industry.

They are ALL Entitled. As long as you have expectations you are entitled.

By believing in human rights you are being entitled.

That is how weightless entitlement as the basis for an arguement is. Since it is basically used as a different way of saying "spoiled" except "spoiled" is easier to argue against then entitled so it isn't used.

[Leatra]

and they are damn right!

you want to boycott them? fine. don't buy their stuff.

piracy on the other hand is illegal. and while I despise those company and I despise copyright law, a law is still a law.

Eh, piracy is illegal in name only in my country so I don't really care. It's not about personal morals and the law. I can see why Americans are big on this piracy issue. Here, you can buy pirated (burned into a disk) games off the street for 2-3 dollars. Hell, even cops buy them. Finding original games is more difficult. They are only sold in big malls.

[Cthulhu]

If you think a game is not worth what you're paying for it, then don't buy it.

The issue is that games do not easily have replacements that foods, books, hardware, ovens, fridges, movies, paintings, and other products do.

If you don't buy very specific games you can often be locked out of an genre for years or forever in some cases.

Meaning you have to take what comes along with it for better or ill.

It is a lot more complicated then just "Gamers are entitled" as often this is more like extortion.

It's video games, man.  They can't gouge you on idle distractions, you're not going to die if you don't play video games.  Read a book or something.

This is basically exactly why people think gamers are entitled.  You're treating video games like a precious commodity they're gouging you on.  No one's forcing you to buy these games except your own addiction.

----------

There's a pretty big difference between gamers and moviegoers, best illustrated by Mass Effect 3.  The gamers raged so hard that the developers actually relented and made a new ending after the game had already been complete and released for months to satisfy them.  When have you ever heard of that happening with a movie?

[Neonivek]

There's a pretty big difference between gamers and moviegoers, best illustrated by Mass Effect 3.  The gamers raged so hard that the developers actually relented and made a new ending after the game had already been complete and released for months to satisfy them.  When have you ever heard of that happening with a movie?

Aliens Resurection and Pretty woman For pre-release. I am Legend for post release.

There are plays and movies where people demanded a different ending.

Heck not that far back people were actually discussing if a movie could be so bad that you SHOULD be entitled to a refund.

This is basically exactly why people think gamers are entitled.  You're treating video games like a precious commodity they're gouging you on.  No one's forcing you to buy these games except your own addiction

The secret is... Everyone is Entitled.

It is a commodity and as such you have an expectation of quality. Thus there is an expected entitlement to quality.

Thus being "Entitled" doesn't mean anything. So what if people who play videogames actually want quality to match the price? I think everyone wants the most for their money.

[Darkening Kaos]

There's a pretty big difference between gamers and moviegoers, best illustrated by Mass Effect 3.  The gamers raged so hard that the developers actually relented and made a new ending after the game had already been complete and released for months to satisfy them.  When have you ever heard of that happening with a movie?

Bladerunner Theatrical Version vs. Director's Cut.
A thirty year(?) old movie with the ending changed because the test-audience didn't like the director's vision of how the movie ended.
It's not a new concept.

[Neonivek]

There's a pretty big difference between gamers and moviegoers, best illustrated by Mass Effect 3.  The gamers raged so hard that the developers actually relented and made a new ending after the game had already been complete and released for months to satisfy them.  When have you ever heard of that happening with a movie?

Bladerunner Theatrical Version vs. Director's Cut.
A thirty year(?) old movie with the ending changed because the test-audience didn't like the director's vision of how the movie ended.
It's not a new concept.

What probably makes Mass Effect 3 a terrible example is that... well..

They OUTRIGHT said there would be a complete ending that answered "all" the questions.

There is entitlement because they were outright advertised the game on the very basis that this would be fulfilled.

Something that Movie Goers absolutely despise. How many people who go to the movies actually hate it when trailers give a completely inaccurate description of the movie? How many movie goers hate it when a movie doesn't complete its narrative because of "Sequel begging"? The idea of wanting something and not getting it is not something unique to gamers.

---

Lets face it. This discussion is less on "Entitlement" and more on "We think you are wrong on what you can and cannot expect"

[Cthulhu]

There's a pretty big difference between gamers and moviegoers, best illustrated by Mass Effect 3.  The gamers raged so hard that the developers actually relented and made a new ending after the game had already been complete and released for months to satisfy them.  When have you ever heard of that happening with a movie?

Aliens Resurection and Pretty woman For pre-release. I am Legend for post release.

Pre-release, cutting-floor alternate endings and the like aren't the same thing.  These weren't created new as a response to vitriolic reactions by the fanbase.  I'm sure most serious movie creators would say "fuck no" to the idea of going back and making a new ending because the fans didn't like it, it's compromising their artistic vision.

Thus being "Entitled" doesn't mean anything. So what if people who play videogames actually want quality to match the price? I think everyone wants the most for their money.

Vote with your wallet.  You're standing in front of a machine that understands no language except money, and you're giving it money while telling it to charge less money.  It only recognizes one of those two gestures, can you guess which one?  You can't have your cake and eat it too, which is a silly expression I know but humorously reconfiguring it is too much work.

Honestly, maybe you're right and you're not being entitled in the sense I'm thinking of it.  It doesn't matter a whole lot though, because the fact remains that unless you're abstaining from games that don't fuck with the customer, you're never going to get anywhere and are actually encouraging the bad behavior.

[aristabulus]

Lets face it. This discussion is less on "Entitlement" and more on "We think you are wrong on what you can and cannot expect"

I thought this was a discussion about unethical monetization practices in the games we play....  at least, it was the last time I posted. >_>

So many things have been conflated into this thread, the only reasonable response is: picard-what-the-hell-is-this.jpg

[Neonivek]

Pre-release, cutting-floor alternate endings and the like aren't the same thing.  These weren't created new as a response to vitriolic reactions by the fanbase.  I'm sure most serious movie creators would say "fuck no" to the idea of going back and making a new ending because the fans didn't like it, it's compromising their artistic vision

Actually in Aliens Resurection a few bad comments made the creator go insane and entirely recreate his movie. A movie that most people now adays say that the original plans were genuinly good.

It entirely counts because it was the "fans" (or in this case Test Audiance) who through their "I don't like the movie" changed it.

As well you are clearly overamping the artistic qualities of movies. A movie can be something that is trying to be as pleasing as possible. This "artistic vision" isn't nessisarily compromised because something had to be changed. In fact the sheer idea that the person didn't have to make ANY artistic compromises is rediculous.

Vote with your wallet.  You're standing in front of a machine that understands no language except money, and you're giving it money while telling it to charge less money.  It only recognizes one of those two gestures, can you guess which one?  You can't have your cake and eat it too, which is a silly expression I know but humorously reconfiguring it is too much work

A burnt cake can have pretty icing.

The only way to find out is to eat it.

I thought this was a discussion about unethical monetization practices in the games we play....  at least, it was the last time I posted.

It was but remember. Cthulhu and others are making an arguement that is basically that there is no such thing as "Unethical monetization" because ultimately you decide if something is unethical through Entitlement and that entitlement is ultimately a very bad thing. Mind you they are doing it indirrectly but still.

Thus in order to argue that this thread even has a basis in reality you have to validate entitlement.

In otherwords as long as entitlement invalidates the thread. You cannot discuss "unethical Monetization" since it doesn't exist.

[freeformschooler]

Vote with your wallet.  You're standing in front of a machine that understands no language except money, and you're giving it money while telling it to charge less money.  It only recognizes one of those two gestures, can you guess which one?  You can't have your cake and eat it too, which is a silly expression I know but humorously reconfiguring it is too much work

A burnt cake can have pretty icing.

The only way to find out is to eat it.

That is absolutely and in every way false. You are sitting at a computer on the Internet. You have so many ways to find out if it's a burnt cake.

Do research into its DRM techniques. Read consumer complaints on forums, wait until weeks after release to see what problems pop up. Watch segments of Let's Plays, visit review aggregation websites, play demos. Ask people who have played - maybe on an Internet forum about gaming - and consider their complaints. Hell, if you are dead set on playing the actual game first, there is nothing preventing you but your own morals from caving and pirating the gameas a "demo."

Does the specific game not offer one or more of these things? Maybe there isn't a demo. It's too obscure so there aren't many good reviews. The fanbase is too fanatical! Take an alternate route. Complain more directly - on the game's forums, on fan forums, to the developers themselves. Write an e-mail. Ask questions, ask about business practices, even angrily. Get information somewhere.

With this many options right in front of you, I cannot see a reason to get upset about poorly spent money in the video game industry that doesn't come back to impulse buying, poor research skills and an overwhelming need for instant gratification - aka, all things that are no one's fault but your own.

I respect your hype aversion, Neonivek. I respect it a lot, even when it leads you to start arguments that can come off as entitled or pointless. It represents a certain degree of realism on your part: you realize that the same things that lead to a flood of hype also make it more difficult to find real information about how worthy something is of a $60 purchase. For someone who has that realism about them, all you need is a little extra research effort to stay satisfied with purchases.

[Sonlirain]

I'd like to point out something important.

If someone torrents new games like assasins creed ETC because "i don't have the money" then he's obviously a grade A lying arsehole.
If you can afford a PC that can run new games then you should be rich enough to buy a new game at least once a month or two.

Also using a illegal copy of the game as a "demo" really works only if you have a strong will... because if you already saw it for free... then why pay right?

[Neonivek]

Do research into its DRM techniques. Read consumer complaints on forums, wait until weeks after release to see what problems pop up. Watch segments of Let's Plays, visit review aggregation websites, play demos. Ask people who have played - maybe on an Internet forum about gaming - and consider their complaints. Hell, if you are dead set on playing the actual game first, there is nothing preventing you but your own morals from caving and pirating the gameas a "demo."

When you go to the store to buy a peice of meat. How much research do you put into finding out if it is any good?