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[miauw62]

I don't think of TF2 as P2W, as it's possible to get most items that you want within a reasonable period of time. Very few weapons are really essential, except for mayby the axetinguisher for the pyro, mainly because the default axe is underpowered for a class that does tonnes of damage up close. Any more examples?

[Neonivek]

Yes do we have an example of a game that didn't get worse or change its focus after going free to play or pay to win FROM a subscription model?

[miauw62]

I was talking about essential weapons

But I don't think there are games that don't change after they go F2P, as it causes a major community shift.

[SalmonGod]

I think Valve sort of gave up on TF2.  I don't think it started getting unbalanced until after I left.  I even considered the sniper bow balanced.  It was only better than the rifle in specific situations, and adding more diversity to the game was the entire point.

Now my kid still plays it sometimes.  I help him manage his items, and some of them do look like straight upgrades.  There was one that you could only get via purchase that was blatantly so.

Spoiler: tangential TF2 rant (click to show/hide)

They had a great idea in the beginning with the achievement unlockables.  I really think that was a genius system, and it was very tightly balanced in the beginning.  All they needed to do was make items unlock according to player's play style, as determined by the types of achievements they get.  For instance, I always played a front line sniper, even before the bow & arrow.  About 1/3 of my kills were with the machete, and not just against spies.  After getting some achievements related to that playstyle, I would have unlocked the bow to further accentuate it.  It was an automated system for making every player more unique according to their methods of play.  I really think this is where Valve was going with it, and it was going to be one of the coolest game mechanics ever.

The community ruined it.  People just weren't mature enough to let it be a good thing.  The shitstorm was unbelievable.  Nastiest game community uproar I've ever seen.  Valve just threw their hands up and suck "Fuck it.  Have some hats."

Anyway... Free to Play is not always Play to Win.  League of Legends is an extremely successful example.  I still say Blacklight: Retribution is another.  The stuff you unlocked effected gameplay, but it focused heavily on balanced customization.  Plus, its rental system was very well implemented, such that if you played regularly, you could maintain a loadout just as customized as a paying player without worrying about grind.  I've been hearing that Path of Exile is another great example, but I haven't personally looked at that one in several months.

Yes do we have an example of a game that didn't get worse or change its focus after going free to play or pay to win FROM a subscription model?

I do not have one of these.

[miauw62]

Yeah, there are some very noob items. I agree. The machinima is an excellent example. The pre-buff backburner too.

Mind telling me the name of the item that you could only buy trough the store and that was a direct upgrade? The only weapons with altered stats that you can only buy trough the store are generally items that were just released, and they add them to the dropping/crafting system after about a week to keep the traders on their toes.

[SalmonGod]

I think it was the Pomson 6000, but I'm not sure.  I think it's been over a year since I had to deal with that.  My kid wanted it really badly, but if you went to craft or trade the thing it told you that it could only be purchased... and it was like $10.

[miauw62]

That's not right. I'm pretty sure you can craft and trade it. That's really weird. Never ever heard of anything like that, and I see too much people using it for it to be a 10 dollar thing. For one, if you would try to trade it, and it was untradeable, it wouldn't even appear in the trading menu. A crafting recipe would always work. But I never heard of that.

As for it being horrendously OP, I completely agree. It actually has one downside. 80% reduced damage to buildings. Wich is OBVIOUSLY a huge downside for your average engineer. Many people just refer to it as the fagson, because it's so OP.

Can't find anything about it being only avaible through the store on google, either.

[SalmonGod]

Looking at the history on that wiki page, it looks like it was in the game for about a month without a crafting recipe.  It could have been during that month that my kid decided he wanted it.

[omg_scout]

I see this conversation in various forms all the time. Gamers furious that the gaming industry has changed over the years to become more profitable for big game developers. I honestly really don't understand the outrage. If you think a game is not worth what you're paying for it, then don't buy it. All the games I play are either cheap or free, and all are DRM free because I don't like that system, so I don't support it. A game is either worth the money or it's not. The reason the gaming industry works the way it does is because it works. People are paying, lots of them, and the developers are making loads of money. Why would they stop? It's a business. They're entitled to charge as much money as they think people will pay, and so far they're not exactly going bankrupt. The ones who are going bankrupt will influence the ones still going to avoid whatever business model didn't work, or else they'll also go under. The industry will continue to change, just like all industries do. They're not obligated to do it the way you want just because you don't want to spend so much money. And if people stop buying the games with paylocked content, they'll stop making them, plain and simple. (Of course it should be clearly marked on the packaging before you buy it that some of the content is paylocked, or else it's false advertising and I think you'd be entitled to a refund if you decide you don't want to do that.)

People rage because they hate to see their favorite titles bought by Moloch companies, which simply means that the sequel will be shitty. Look at Settlers series. 1,2,3,4 - good games. Then Ubisoft buys BlueByte, and then 4 or more shitty sequels, I even lost count of it.

[miauw62]

That's probably it. If you save up scrap you can try and craft it with the random recipes.

It costs 8 weapons for one craft tough.




I still remain with my original statement that most weapons are pretty  balanced. TF2 is most certainly not P2W.

[Neonivek]

I still remain with my original statement that most weapons are pretty  balanced

Don't weapons get abilities ontop as well?

[Werdna]

If TF2 is P2W, the definition of P2W has become so meaningless that I'm going to ignore anyone that whines about it.  The Huntsman that Neo mentioned, for crying out loud, is FREE (its the first sniper unlock IIRC, and constructable even if you can't manage the 5-10 achievements), and its the very definition of providing a playstyle (fast dynamic movement and short-range engagements, that suits Payload style maps; instead of the rifles' more static, long-range camping-style play) instead of a straight-out upgrade (when it has no scope, less ammo, and projectile drop!)  If snipers are using the Hunstman its because they enjoy the playstyle (and actually care about things like moving the cart or capping a point) and not because they wanted an uber-weapon.

You play on a few random TF2 servers and you'll see a zillion weapons in play, and the players at the top are there because they are good players, not because they have the best weapons.  As for Valve forgetting about TF2.... what?!?  Come on, its a five year old game, and they just released a co-op gameplay mode versus robots, with many new maps.  You've got to be kidding me.

[Werdna]

I still remain with my original statement that most weapons are pretty  balanced

Don't weapons get abilities ontop as well?

Yes, but they also generally get penalties.  For instance, I could play with the Black Box, a rocket launcher that gives health back to me when I hit.  But it only gets three rockets per reload, and I would prefer to have the 4th rocket, so I use the default rocket launcher. 

Edit: And since the Pomson 6000 was brought up - its a good weapon, but I prefer a Frontier Justice because I have good aim to make use of the guaranteed crits, and I generally like to use mini-turrets so it frequently gets those crit-charges.  The Pomson is not that good that its 'OP', it doesn't deal great damage at short range.  If you are an engineer trying to protect your nest from a spy, you want something with stopping power, and the Pomson has awful DPS of your choices.  If you suddenly turn a corner and come face to face with a Pyro, which would you rather have in your remaining few seconds, a crit-loaded Frontier Justice, or a Pomson?  But if you are an Engineer that enjoys being able to shoot downrange effectively with a rifle like the Pomson, instead of shotguns, well... that's a playstyle choice, isn't it? 

[Biowraith]

Yes do we have an example of a game that didn't get worse or change its focus after going free to play or pay to win FROM a subscription model?

Opinions at the time varied, but personally I think City of Heroes (before its untimely and apparently unrelated death) was just as good, if not better, once it went from standard subscription model to a hybrid free/premium/subscriber model.  Most players seemed to agree.  I don't know if the inclusion of that last part - keeping the subscription as an option - was a part of that though.

[Werdna]

I think the reason I have a bug up my ass is that I used to play TFC, a lot of it, for like 5 years, back when "TF2" was a vaporware joke on the same order as Duke Nukem.  Valve was making no money off that thing, yet they still tossed us a bone now and then, with model updates and new maps and a few gizmos like the engy teleporter.  But when you compare TFC to TF2, it is night and day.  Valve releases patches regularly for TF2, and they contain balancing tweaks, they contain fresh new items, they contain special holiday events, they contain new maps, they contain completely new game modes, they even contain community-designed items and maps and tweaks!  How many games out there get that sort of treatment?  One thing made it possible for Valve to dedicate developers to TF2 after five years - F2P.  F2P is what refreshed the game's population, when it began to dwindle along with Orange Box sales (Neo: something like 3 million people bought TF2).  How many five year old games still have tons of active, populated servers to choose from?  F2P and the store is what paid for developer salaries to keep them actively adding new content to TF2 after five years, and not treating it like a charity case as they did with TFC.  This game would be dead as a doornail, if they hadn't switched to F2P.  I hope they made great money off it, to serve as a model to everyone else how F2P can be done successfully.  So let's not be so quick to knock them down into the mud with the rest of the F2P piggies, just because they're not perfect, ok?