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[scapheap]

Remove the upper arms and that what I was think for the afterguards

[scapheap]

Remove the upper arms and that what I was think for the afterguards

[GreatWyrmGold]

I still suggest corrupting the earth with chaos. Because fuck the environment, WE DON'T NEED NATURE WHERE WE'RE GOING.

-1
I really hate this idea of "We don't need nature" IRL, too. If you bring up this idea again, I swear I will subject you to a rant on the topic.

Words.

Sentience is experiences. Protein chains and bacteria and even sponges(apparently) and whatnot lack this. They're robots. Input output. Sapience is thought(and yes, language is a side effect), plus reasoning. What we're using right now to discuss this(or should be). Arguably any being that can grasp hefty ideas. Such as ceasing to be in all your entirety, or, possibly, the idea of god. Is sapient. As a side note, apparently some consider chimps sapient, and whether or not it is true it is very interesting.

A bit irrelevant to the issue at hand--the disagreeing assumptions about the intellect of troglodytes.

I assume they(the Trogs) are no better than intelligent canines, or parrots, because we've no idea of their intelligence otherwise, and the chunk of their souls that is missing has to have been removed somewhere- I'm placing my bets on them having animal thought patterns(and have the idea that if we remove that and replace it with devotion, well..). If they're caveman smart, then excellent, we don't have to do much more work in shaping their brains to be built for non-caveman lifestyles.

I assume creatures are sentient/sapient/self-aware/intelligent/whatever until otherwise shown. It's easier that way; less of a chance of getting surprised by intellect or moral consequences.
Anyways, the fact that they have a soul shows that they're significantly more intelligent and self-aware than dogs or whatever. The weakness just means that some portion of them (intelligence? wisdom? spirituality?) is less notable than in humans.

The reason I suggested making them into new creatures was so they could start again as entirely new beings, with new intelligence and understanding. Instead of having to slave away at teaching the Trogs, we could have intelligent, loyal bug people. Or plant people. Or whatever we mold them into.

I have no problems with modifying the troglodytes.

Grumugga has had some success with making orcs incredibly loyal. If we can't bind them to us, specifically, we may have to settle with making them enjoy serving under a higher power. Something the knowledge goddess may be able to help us with.

Give them work they're happy with, don't force them to be happy doing the work we want them to do.

Also, they still have free will, as beings with souls, and can be spurned and leave, but lacking 'complete' souls, they'd be harder pressed to do such a thing. The only beings that love(serve) us entirely and unconditionally are our soulless creations. Another evil thing would be completely removing their free will, instead of enticing them to work for us.

What is the difference between forcing someone to work for us and mindraping them so they need to do so the feel happy?

Also, we're a young god and just considered something like this. The Empire has probably known about this sort of thing for years, if not decades, or even centuries!

Then why do you think it's possible?

The only reason I can consider why they wouldn't do something like this is because of internal disputes(heh), or the fact it'd slash their mana income.

Internal disputes are no reason to discard something useful to all.
And if it would "slash" their income somehow, what would it do to us?

They probably don't even need lesser-souled beings to work for them, after all, they're probably loading their people to the gills on propaganda.

More is better than less. Obviously, they don't have enough propaganda if they have people fleeing to villages run by young chaos gods.

We can make angels capable of defending our afterlife and repairing it; I don't think we need butterflies in addition to angels.  Just seems like an unnecessary additional creation that only fills a single purpose that something else could already do in addition to other useful tasks.
Also I just don't feel like investing time and mana into butterflies.

I prefer having two specialized creatures rather than a single jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none.
Why do you think soldiers and engineers are two distinct jobs, like, everywhere?

Agreed.
Also, gman, do not judge by the color of their skin form of their flesh, but the content of their character.

Thing I found.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Gasp. That's copyrighted material. You monster.

[Gamerlord]

Thing I found.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Gasp. That's copyrighted material. You monster.

Tiberius: "... Daddy?"

[Remuthra]

I prefer having two specialized creatures rather than a single jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none.
Why do you think soldiers and engineers are two distinct jobs, like, everywhere?

Well, there were Centurions...

[gman8181]

I fail to understand how making angels capable of repairing our afterlife would make them any less able to defend it by fighting.  I'm not completely opposed to butterflies, it just seems like a silly way to spend time and mana when the same job could be done more efficiently in another way.  For example, say you hire a person to watch your dog while you go on vacation.  Would you hire three people; one to feed the dog one, one to give the dog water and a third to walk the dog?  Wouldn't it make more sense to hire one person to just do all three of those things considering they are all so closely connected?  Having a person only give your dog food does not make them the master of feeding dogs any more than having a person do all three makes them a jack of all trades, master of none.

You have related repairing the afterlife to an engineering job, something that takes an extensive amount of training to do.  A person is not always trained as a soldier and engineer because it requires training to do both jobs and it would be difficult for one person to learn and excel at both fields.  However, you also want to make butterflies that are able to repair the afterlife.  I presume these butterflies will not be trained in the field of repairing our afterlife; rather it would be something that we imprint into their natural instincts and behavior.  If we can do that for butterflies, then we could do the same for our angels.  They would also be able to instinctively repair the afterlife as well as fight and it would not require any training to do so.  This in my opinion nullifies the major argumentative factor of having angels be able to do both as neither would require time for training and they would not lose out on any effectiveness from being able to accomplish both tasks.

Another thing that factors into why people are not trained as both soldiers and engineers is because if you lose one, you lose both.  Keep in mind though, our creations will be in our afterlife.  If we do make butterflies simply for repairing things and the void spawn manage to get through, there is nothing more the butterflies can do and their usefulness is expended.  The angels on the other hand would still be able to fight after the void spawn break in and would no be in any way nullified as the situation changes.  The angels do not need to fight unless the void spawn break in, so up until that point they can spend their time patrolling and maintaining our afterlife.  If we make butterflies to maintain the afterlife, our angels will have no purpose unless the void spawn break through.  Thus our creations would not be operating in the most effective manner possible.

[jaass]

I believe butterflies in their larva stage would repair the hole by weaving a "cocoon of existence" around the holes.

[jaass]

Instead all resistance armor, we should have armor capable of taking bludengoning. But they should also have acidic blood so the enemies sharp weapons would be pretty useless in a long term fight.

[kaian-a-coel]

The dog-caring comparison is innacurate. you're splitting it into too simple tasks. Repairing and fighting are much more complex tasks than feeding a dog or whatever. A more accurate comparison would be the army. Or rather, FPS classes. We want a class with a wrench (engineer), and one with a big gun. Because if the void spawn break through, there will be holes to repair AND void spawn to kill.

[Karnewarrior]

The dog-caring comparison is innacurate. you're splitting it into too simple tasks. Repairing and fighting are much more complex tasks than feeding a dog or whatever. A more accurate comparison would be the army. Or rather, FPS classes. We want a class with a wrench (engineer), and one with a big gun. Because if the void spawn break through, there will be holes to repair AND void spawn to kill.

Precisely, the weaverflies would be mindless insects who don't even understand what they're doing. They'd keep trying to seal the hole even as voidspawn pour out. Meanwhile the angels would be completely sentient if not made from souls themselves, and be dedicated to protecting the afterlife. Since they don't have to worry about sealing up the holes, they can just slaughter voidspawn while the Weaverflies sew it back up.

It would also mean the angels could devote their time to different things, like training, where before some time would have to be spent sewing up wholes.

[gman8181]

If we're going to make butterflies they should at least be able to do something else while they aren't fixing up the void tears.

Still just to be clear, the reason I used the dog comparison is because to our angels these would be simple tasks.  The whole point I'm making is that unlike with people in the army, the angels wouldn't need to be trained.  It would be instinctual just like for the butterflies.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

If we're going to make butterflies they should at least be able to do something else while they aren't fixing up the void tears.

Exactly why it's bad to have something specialized in one very important task? Angels can do that too? Good. We'll get even more safety. 
And they have another task by default. They are pretty and improve the quality of the afterlife

[kaian-a-coel]

they have another task by default. They are pretty and improve the quality of the afterlife

This. Thus increasing our mana income.

[gman8181]

I missed the part where we were told having a pretty afterlife increases mana income.  If that is true, then okay I guess.  I just don't feel like having a pretty afterlife just for the sake of it being pretty is a high priority.

[Koliup]

Words.

It's perfectly relevant to the issue at hand. Not only in how much work we'll have to do to make them smart, if lacking in the entirety of free will. But also as to whether or not they're better than animals. We can ask Uristiel what kind of civilization and technological progress the Troglodytes have made, but I'm doubting it's anything better than simple tool use. Something even crows and monkeys can do.

It's easier that way if you're expecting a fight, too. And perhaps they're more intelligent than intelligent canines or intelligent parrots. But they're incapable of expressing that intelligence in a useful way, like escaping their cages. They're pretty much living like animals. That missing part of their soul is where whatever, or whoever made them forgot to fill in the blanks in their brains and minds, and it was filled with animal instinct. We can do better.

See, that's the thing, if we mold them into something else, like bug people for example, it would be as thought they were a bug person that had a dream they were a Troglodyte. Only now the bug person is awake. If we make them enjoy serving us, there is no work they won't take some enjoyment from. Why would we need to give them utterly detestable jobs, when we have a bunch of slots for expansion in the not so detestable sectors? We can automate the crappy stuff with biological machines. The difference between building something to work for us, and mindraping something instead, is that in the first case, that is all it knows. It's hard to explain, but imagine that time when you found out about how much fun utilizing your sexual organs was. Now, imagine instead they did nothing beforehand, and then a wizard came along and bestowed the power of pleasure upon you in your adult life. That would be an incredibly distressing discovery, in all likelihood.

I think it's possible because it seems to be possible. Grumugga has devoted orcs, and we can make plant robots to work for us. It's not much of a stretch for born-zealots.
As for slashing incomes. Come on, you really didn't do the math? 10+.5 equals 10.5, not 5. Whereas 10/2 equals 5. The Empire would be slashing their income by removing free will from beings that already have it. Instead of bolstering their mana income with new, half soul creatures(something they're unlikely to do, order and whatnot). So, what would it do to us? Give us more mana.