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[GreatWyrmGold]

What part of "control" does no one get?

I think most people just don't believe the control will work. We've all seen too many horror movies.

We control the Fungus Spawn. We control the gold dragons. We control the firejackets.
In case that's not enough, I suggested that each Fungus Sleeper's explosive pods (among the first new "organs" to develop) be able to be detonated by Donut as needed...which, assuming that the Sleeper has attained sufficient intelligence and free will to not listen to us to begin with, would cause it to realize that its continued existence relies on not angering us.
And then there's any other idea anyone can come up with, which no one else has because almost everyone else is condemning it, mostly for things which apply to Fungus Spawn as well.

[gman8181]

Alright, some part of me figured this might be what was happening.  To me it looks like the main reason why we are arguing is not because our views are completely different but because there is a misunderstanding between what we are trying to accomplish.

Yes, I have never been suggesting we start the zombie apocalypse.  I (and GWG too, I believe) have been aiming for what Remuthra described as type B infection.  It doesn't turn people into zombies, it turns them into sleeper agents that follow our orders and are capable of spreading spores through breathing, with the spores making more people into sleeper agents.  We would control the spores and the sleeper agents and therefore also control who is infected by them.  Our sleeper agents would not be mindlessly aggressive, they would for the most part act like their former selves with the exception being increased physical prowess and complete loyalty to us.  We would not be targeting civilian populations (at least I wasn't suggesting it), we would be targeting enemy armies just like the other chaos god and slowly replacing their troops with our own that look and behave almost identically except for loyalty to us.

As far as Jara, yes I would also like to give him the ability to reproduce either asexually or with a mate.  He would be more elite spy and assassin while the fungi infiltrators would be much more numerous and probably less skilled.  I think we can have both.

I guess I also misinterpreted some of the posts concerning the Jara, so my apologies.  Yes, I agree we should do our best to prevent him from becoming a psychopath killer like Laskus but I do think he should be trained for the purpose we created him for (assuming he wants it) as an assassin.  I would rather we not send him to the light goddess's city though.  Just have a bad feeling about giving her someone so powerful with the chance of him being converted.  We can teach him on our own turf.  I think at some point we wanted to increase the education in our community anyway.

GWG, I answered the quarantine issue in one of my posts before but I'll once again repeat parts of it along with some extra.  They need to know the infection existed in the first place.  Quarantines require manpower that they then can not use in other circumstances.  What happens if the military carrying out the quarantine is infected?  Assuming you automatically say "all the military carrying out the quarantine would be immune due to boons," this is highly unlikely and if true would be very expensive.  Now assume they have to do this in multiple places because obviously we wouldn't restrict our infection to one place.  What happens when we infect important people such as the commander in charge of the quarantine?  They haven't been able to take care of the other chaos god's infiltrators and the spores can be carried by wind over quarantines negating any real arguments on the matter with the exception of expensive magic used by the god to stop the wind or something.  If they kill everyone in the quarantined area to prevent further infection.  Congrats, we just got them to antagonize their own people and maybe gained us some followers or allowed us to sew further seeds of rebellion.

[Remuthra]

What part of "control" does no one get?

I think most people just don't believe the control will work. We've all seen too many horror movies.

We control the Fungus Spawn. We control the gold dragons. We control the firejackets.
In case that's not enough, I suggested that each Fungus Sleeper's explosive pods (among the first new "organs" to develop) be able to be detonated by Donut as needed...which, assuming that the Sleeper has attained sufficient intelligence and free will to not listen to us to begin with, would cause it to realize that its continued existence relies on not angering us.
And then there's any other idea anyone can come up with, which no one else has because almost everyone else is condemning it, mostly for things which apply to Fungus Spawn as well.

But what if it goes horribly wrong and the fungus sleepers take over our populace?
As for type B, I am not opposed to it, maybe small sleeper spores which grow and reproduce in the lungs instead?

[GreatWyrmGold]

@gman:
And what about spores in the food? Do they use powerful boons to destroy any trace of life in the food, somehow without affecting the food at all (despite the fact that the spores are scarcely more alive than the food), before sending it to the cities and such?
And what about that quarantine? How would soldiers deal with exposed Fungus Sleepers? They bleed red (due to maintaining most of the host's circulatory system), and so they'd need to either cut deep into the flesh to reach the fungus or else just incinerate the Sleeper. Great for morale, especially if a witch hunt breaks out. Can you say Salem? I knew you could.
It ruins morale (destroying the worshiperbase for the Empire), and that's if the Empire goes through with it.

@ninja:

What part of "control" does no one get?

I think most people just don't believe the control will work. We've all seen too many horror movies.

We control the Fungus Spawn. We control the gold dragons. We control the firejackets.
In case that's not enough, I suggested that each Fungus Sleeper's explosive pods (among the first new "organs" to develop) be able to be detonated by Donut as needed...which, assuming that the Sleeper has attained sufficient intelligence and free will to not listen to us to begin with, would cause it to realize that its continued existence relies on not angering us.
And then there's any other idea anyone can come up with, which no one else has because almost everyone else is condemning it, mostly for things which apply to Fungus Spawn as well.

But what if it goes horribly wrong and the fungus sleepers take over our populace?

Well, A. there's a reason we're proposing all of these controls, and B. the Sleepers would still be under our control, so there's that.

As for type B, I am not opposed to it, maybe small sleeper spores which grow and reproduce in the lungs instead?

...How would that be a Sleeper agent?

[Remuthra]

...How would that be a Sleeper agent?

Because it would hijack the person like the fungus spawn, maybe it would act as a censor, forcing the host to do as we wish, but otherwise act normal.

[Talvara]

just how would a sleeper agent work? I can't really think of anything aside from killing the origional (perhaps not physical, but the 'person selfhood kinda thing') and replacing it with a creation of our own,

or if it doesnt kill the 'self' why should they be alligned to us after being turned?

I'm prettymuch opposed to trying to destroy the follower base of our enemies by going after their civilian population with agressive acts.

[Remuthra]

just how would a sleeper agent work? I can't really think of anything aside from killing the origional (perhaps not physical, but the 'person selfhood kinda thing') and replacing it with a creation of our own,

or if it doesnt kill the 'self' why should they be alligned to us after being turned?

I'm prettymuch opposed to trying to destroy the follower base of our enemies by going after their civilian population with agressive acts.

Reminds me of this.
http://creepypasta.wikia.com/wiki/Psychosis
But I'm pretty much neutral to type B.

[gman8181]

Have you ever heard of toxoplasmosis?  It's a parasite that lives in mice but needs to breed in cat intestines.  To do this, it goes into the mouse's brain and instills in it a strong attraction to cats (or the smell of cats, I don't recall which).  This makes the mouse go up to where cats live and generally get eaten.  The parasite then reproduces inside the cat and is pooped out for the cycle to continue (not sure how it gets from cat poop to the mice but whatever).  This parasite can also infect humans due to the similarities between a human and mouse brain.  In humans, the parasite has a similar effect and makes the human in question feel more attracted to cats (aww so cute).  It is approximated that almost 11% of the population has this parasite.

Does it effect us and our behavior?  Yes.  Does it kill the person?  No.  Is this a bad analogy?  Maybe...

Obviously what we're suggesting is much more extreme but the point I'm trying to get across is that it is very possible for something to infect and even have mental influences on a person without killing them or destroying their mind.  Also if it's remotely possible in real life, then it's definitely possible in a god game.  We might not get it right immediately, but who says we have to rush.  We can keep it contained and keep tweaking it until we get it right and then we'll use it once it's made the way we want it.

Also, as I think we have said in many many posts, we don't have to use it on civilians and I don't think anyone is advocating its use on civilians.  We would use it on enemy soldiers and enemy officials.  We are not destroying the enemy's follower base, just their military.

[GreatWyrmGold]

...How would that be a Sleeper agent?

Because it would hijack the person like the fungus spawn, maybe it would act as a censor, forcing the host to do as we wish, but otherwise act normal.

And how is that different, functionally, from my suggested Fungus Sleepers?

just how would a sleeper agent work? I can't really think of anything aside from killing the origional (perhaps not physical, but the 'person selfhood kinda thing') and replacing it with a creation of our own,
or if it doesnt kill the 'self' why should they be alligned to us after being turned?
I'm prettymuch opposed to trying to destroy the follower base of our enemies by going after their civilian population with agressive acts.

You hit it more or less on the head.
And they'd be doing the same to us, just less subtly and leaving less of the person.

[Remuthra]

And how is that different, functionally, from my suggested Fungus Sleepers?

It would be reversible I guess.

[Rolepgeek]

I don't like the sleepers for one basic reason.

It's killing civilians. 'Oh, they retain some of thmselves' is like giving an excuse for the Borg. Us then essentially threatening to kill them, makes it a step worse. Besides the part where I doubt order gods are bad at surgical removal of spores, and the fact that microscopic spores is a ridiculous concept, the part where if they don't have some form of homeostasis, their structure can be broken down pretty easily, that where if they don't have some way of creating energy, they need an outside source to do so, the part where I doubt morale is good there anyway, and I doubt they have no way of healing people, and so am pretty sure that thre's a very easy way to tell if someone's a sleeper. Cut them open. Somewhat surgically. At the stomach. If their guts are fungus? They're a sleeper. There's the part where you seem to be underestimating the bodies responses to something attacking one of it's precious internal organs, the possibility of organ failure in many victims, due to the difficulty of an part-fungus part-animal thing happening in a creature not designed for such, and of course, the horrid thought of it happening to our own worshippers, or even worse, it inspiring our enemie's to do something similar. Would it be effective? Certainly. Would it be conceivable if this were a real world situation and thus we were applying our own morales rather than game morales to the situation? Depends on the person. Is it required? No. Is it likely that a pantheon of order has the ability to keep their holdings incredibly clean and thus create incredibly effective quarantine measures? Yes. And I rambling at this point? Likely so.

What we should focus on is defenses, what with a powerful order god coming to try and ass-rape us. A good offence is the best defense, but a good offense needs the attacking party to be on a power level similar to or better than the defenders.

[GreatWyrmGold]

And how is that different, functionally, from my suggested Fungus Sleepers?

It would be reversible I guess.

Well, assuming that the infection in the lungs was taking control of the body, that would require...me to remember to stop applying real-world neurobiology to this.
Well, a bit of a plus I guess. I'll boil down the differences I see between the two Fungus Sleeper subspecies:
A (mine):
-Useful as troops once their utility as sleeper agents is lost one way or another
-More similar to the Fungus Spawn (although either would be a big change)
-A couple more ways to aggressively spread the spores
B (Remuthra's):
-Reversible
-No chance of accidental detonation
-Probably a shorter incubation period
So...Focusing on the strengths of the Fungus Sleepers, Remuthra's idea is superior. I guess something about spreading spores by explosions caught my imagination.

I don't like the sleepers for one basic reason.

It's killing civilians.

I'll give you that. How do you feel about Remurtha's idea?

the fact that microscopic spores is a ridiculous concept, the part where if they don't have some form of homeostasis, their structure can be broken down pretty easily, that where if they don't have some way of creating energy, they need an outside source to do so,

Most of that is present in real-world creatures. You'd be amazed at how hardy life can be. Really, the only unproven bit is the bit about protecting it from Death Magic.

the part where I doubt morale is good there anyway,

And killing people who up till that point have been normal couldn't make it worse?

and I doubt they have no way of healing people, and so am pretty sure that thre's a very easy way to tell if someone's a sleeper. Cut them open. Somewhat surgically. At the stomach. If their guts are fungus? They're a sleeper.

Hm. Hadn't thought of that.
Wow, Remuthra's idea solves a lot of problems.

There's the part where you seem to be underestimating the bodies responses to something attacking one of it's precious internal organs, the possibility of organ failure in many victims, due to the difficulty of an part-fungus part-animal thing happening in a creature not designed for such,

1. Immunosupressants or mimicking biochemistry
2. Magic
3. No longer an isue

and of course, the horrid thought of it happening to our own worshippers,

Control. Control has been discussed since pretty much the first post talking about the Sleepers, and yet no one seems to acknowledge our suggestions about ways to control them.

or even worse, it inspiring our enemie's to do something similar.

What? They already want to kill us. Can't imagine anything being much worse than that.

Would it be effective? Certainly. Would it be conceivable if this were a real world situation and thus we were applying our own morales rather than game morales to the situation? Depends on the person.

Well, these guys are pretty darn Evil from our perspective. Look at it as us being Eisenhower, and Japan being about dozens to hundreds of times stronger than the US. Yeah, I can see Nagasaki happening with much less regret.

Is it required? No.

Is it worth discussion and improvement? Yes.
Have any of you offered improvements? Well, other than Remuthra, no. You've just been attacking my ideas, along with large amounts of attacking-not-my-ideas.

Is it likely that a pantheon of order has the ability to keep their holdings incredibly clean and thus create incredibly effective quarantine measures? Yes.

Considering that they're basically the Middle Ages, but with less concern about human life...

What we should focus on is defenses, what with a powerful order god coming to try and ass-rape us. A good offence is the best defense, but a good offense needs the attacking party to be on a power level similar to or better than the defenders.

We have a pretty good defense, the two aren't mutually exclusive, and for the last (I hope) time:
THIS IS NOT AN IDEA I FEEL WE MUST IMPLEMENT IMMEDIATELY, JUST ONE I THINK WE SHOULD EVENTUALLY.

[Remuthra]

Not my idea actually. Someone else posted it a page back.
EDIT: How dare you call me Remurthra? You horrible person?

You have no idea how many people make that mistake.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Not my idea actually. Someone else posted it a page back.

Oh.

...Whatever. I now endorse the Fungus Sleeper B concept above the FSA.

[Zavvnao]

is this a debate or bashing room?