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[Remuthra]

Laksud needs a boon before the fight. We cannot lose.

Losing isn't all that bad. And we don't want to cheese our way through the fight, for reasons said before.

[gman8181]

I like how almost EVERYONE completely skipped over my arguments that I even made bold for your convenience, just to go along saying the exact same things as before like "NO super weapons, that'll destroy hundreds of people and everyone will be angry at us and creating another variant of fungus spawn which we already have would be completely wrong," even though they're basically just stealthy versions of fungus spawn that don't need to be hostile to everything that's living any more than our current fungus spawn do.  So what is it, do you guys simply dislike the idea of successful infiltrator units?  Is being subtle and stealthy for some reason a horrible crime against nature and pure evil while being stupidly direct and lacking finesse is somehow the good thing to do?  Seriously, you guys are only responding to certain people's arguments for reasons I can't begin to imagine.  I guess maybe my arguments aren't good enough, even though they directly relate to your complaints?

Peaceful Jaras?  He's practically a biological weapon made into a person and you want him to be a pacifist seriously?  He breaths spores, can teleport, and is practically the perfect assassin.  I'm by no means saying he should be used purely as a tool or that he shouldn't become educated in fields other than combat but I can't help but feel that you guys are just jumping to really crazy decisions simply to satisfy your odd desire to play out a "stupid good" god, with a lack for any common sense.  I don't want to force him into becoming an assassin but we should let him know that he would be a useful one and that it is a possibility if he wants it.  You guys are like parents immediately trying to send their kid off to live in a monastery instead of leaving his options open because you want to "educate" him and prevent him from being "bad".  Maybe he wants to join the army.  Good, he would excel at it and we can still give him an education in other subjects as well.

I know I'll probably be barraged with comments saying "Wow what a munchkin, you just want to play the game to be as powerful as possible without any regard to role playing."  In advance, no that's not true.  Just because I feel like we should play using things to our advantage doesn't make me a munchkin or mean that I don't role play.  I do the same thing in real life trust me.  Does that mean we need to take it in the other extreme?  No, I'm all for being a benevolent, peaceful god when possible but that doesn't mean taking a creation practically designed for combat and sending him off to become a monk and write poetry with the light goddess for all eternity is even close to a good idea.

[Remuthra]

I like how almost EVERYONE completely skipped over my arguments that I even made bold for your convenience, just to go along saying the exact same things as before like "NO super weapons, that'll destroy hundreds of people and everyone will be angry at us and creating another variant of fungus spawn which we already have would be completely wrong," even though they're basically just stealthy versions of fungus spawn that don't need to be hostile to everything that's living any more than our current fungus spawn do.  So what is it, do you guys simply dislike the idea of successful infiltrator units?  Is being subtle and stealthy for some reason a horrible crime against nature and pure evil while being stupidly direct and lacking finesse is somehow the good thing to do?  Seriously, you guys are only responding to certain people's arguments for reasons I can't begin to imagine.  I guess maybe my arguments aren't good enough, even though they directly relate to your complaints?

Peaceful Jaras?  He's practically a biological weapon made into a person and you want him to be a pacifist seriously?  He breaths spores, can teleport, and is practically the perfect assassin.  I'm by no means saying he should be used purely as a tool or that he shouldn't become educated in fields other than combat but I can't help but feel that you guys are just jumping to really crazy decisions simply to satisfy your odd desire to play out a "stupid good" god, with a lack for any common sense.  I don't want to force him into becoming an assassin but we should let him know that he would be a useful one and that it is a possibility if he wants it.  You guys are like parents immediately trying to send their kid off to live in a monastery instead of leaving his options open because you want to "educate" him and prevent him from being "bad".  Maybe he wants to join the army.  Good, he would excel at it and we can still give him an education in other subjects as well.

I know I'll probably be barraged with comments saying "Wow what a munchkin, you just want to play the game to be as powerful as possible without any regard to role playing."  In advance, no that's not true.  Just because I feel like we should play using things to our advantage doesn't make me a munchkin or mean that I don't role play.  I do the same thing in real life trust me.  Does that mean we need to take it in the other extreme?  No, I'm all for being a benevolent, peaceful god when possible but that doesn't mean taking a creation practically designed for combat and sending him off to become a monk and write poetry with the light goddess for all eternity is even close to a good idea.

The plague fungus thing just seems wrong, it's a fungus that eats people from the inside out and turns them into imposters, that seems unneccesarily destructive and evil, and we are a good god, remember?

But the real reason for this post is to tell you you are a munchkin.

[GreatWyrmGold]

How would it be traceable to us? 

I  find it very  likely that our creation have traces of our mana and our identify

Possibly...but there's no proof of this.

Also, the Empire already hates our guts...

It reminds me Castro.  USA hates our guts, let's nuke them. What can go wrong for Cuba?

Difference is, the US hasn't embarked on a holy crusade to eradicate all remnants of Communism, and no other gods would make sure we had some MAD going on.

Another example: In WW2 Nazis knew that the World hate them. Nazis knew that they'll lose all power in case of defeat. But they never used their arsenal of chemical weapons. Think why

Because the chemical weapons would have been obvious, lead to immediate reprisals, and ultimately not affected the outcome of the war much?

and let's face it, their gods are complete monsters. We'd still be better for the people.

Their gods are tyrans, not monsters. At least we have no hints of that. Genocide of mages? Bad, but there are many worse things.. like infecting innocents with deceases...

Just from what we see, they're oppressive and stifle pretty much all they can. A poignant quote is the one about how they taxed the middle class out of existence. And, again, we wouldn't be letting the "disease," as you call it, run willy-nilly. Also, bear in mind that slaughtering innocents is something that the Empire has done, and the Fungus Sleepers would still retain some element of their old selves.

Stalin was bad, but a huge majority of citizens of Soviet Union chose to fight against Hitler, because he proved to be worse

And? In this case, about the worse you could claim is that we're Stalin and the Empire is Hitler. Frankly, I'd be fine with that, especially given how the Soviets won. (Well, until the Cold War, but AFAIK there's no America analogues--no allies-of-desperation with more interdivine support and whatnot.)

g. That's why this is subtle. By the time we want to attack, we're able to attack with such devastating forces that the Empire of Tranquility would be massively weakened, if not outright cowed. Probably not cowed, but definitely weakened if we did it right.

Yep, you hope that empire are the powerless idiots and will not act. That they can't spend  thousands of mana to stop that. That they have neither death, nor life gods...
Even if they are idiots... weakening them will not  save our asses. Because they will stay much, much, much stronger than us.

Two things.
One: You don't have to be an idiot to miss something made specifically to be invisible. Was Steve Irwin an idiot for stepping on that stingray?
Two: If we do it right, it would. Infect a few farmers or porters involved with the food going to important cities, infect the right people...we could hypothetically shut down whole regions of the Empire with that fungus, even assuming we didn't cultivate some sweet paranoia.

I just ask all the - "weapon of doom" party. Guys, stop trying to win and find an optimal strategy. It's about a story, not numbers crunching

It's not about an "optimal strategy," it's about an idea that would give Donut--you know what? Forget this.

It's an idea I had, which seemed like it could greatly help us win the war if played right and didn't deviate significantly from what we already had in Fungus Spawn, except in subtlety and infectivity. Then people brought up problems, many which were addressed back in the original chunk of text describing the Sleepers, and many of which I already answered. Unless someone comes up with an actual way to improve them or some arguments not already refuted, I'm not replying to any more posts about Fungus Sleepers (barring gross misrepresentation of my ideas or the facts).
It doesn't help that people tend to be assuming the wrong things about them. They're not just general saboteurs. We wouldn't be taking the Sleepers out of their homes once they were under our control, we'd be making them work for us, while still appearing to be whoever they were beforehand. I went this direction because that idea has been proven to work. Anyone have a better idea of how to achieve it?

That's why I wanted the two weeks incbation for normal fungus spawn; very visible, very deadly, at least once your friend starts trying to gnaw on your face.

no means no. no WMDs/terror weapons. Delayed or immediate.

What a shame that the Fungus Spawn are already that...
Seriously, what makes the Sleepers different than the Spawn?

Also, while I'm not quoting and cropping his post, I agree with gman.
1. Seriously, why are you not responding to our arguments about the Sleepers?
2. Doubly seriously, what is the difference that makes Fungus Spawn "Oh, cool, it's fine" while Sleepers are "OH GOD WMD NO ONE WILL LIKE US"? Is it that the Sleepers retain intelligence after transformation? That they still look human? That they can spread spores outside of combat?
3. Don't try to use a sword as a plowshare. Beating a sword into a plowshare is fine when the sword isn't a sentient being, in which case let it choose if it wants to be a sword, plowshare, helm, or whatever.
4. If it's munchkinning to try and find clever ways to defeat a far superior foe, than I'm a munchkin, David's a munchkin, every dragonslayer of myth who didn't charge at the fire-breathing beast like a fool is a munchkin, Frodo and the Fellowship were munchkins, etc. All of them found ways other than direct confrontation to defeat a foe which would destroy them in a head-on confrontation, which is all I expect the Fungus Sleepers to do.

[Koliup]

So, is anyone else amused we've got a member of House Atreides working for us now?
And it would seem.. unsporting if we gave Laksus a boon before the fight.
Better to tell him not to kill his opponent, instead. He can vent his frustration on orcs later, if he desires.
Also, all this talk of biological WMDs brought back a thought I had: Why make a WMD that hurts everyone, when we can make it target a specific group?
I say if we make a biological weapon, it's an STD that only effects Orcs, and we can attempt to propagate it through Grumugga's population. Honestly, it's the only safe way until we've got enough Jaras we can afford to leave every human settlement for miles around completely abandoned if we fuck up.

And like Gman said, Leto is an assassin. He was built for the purpose of recon and murderizing things. This should not be kept a secret from him. And we should get him trained in stealth and warfare.
Besides, he's tabula rasa, essentially. A blank slate. Unless we're cruel and evil with teaching him, he should end up a pretty sane, if not likeable individual. And I disagree with allowing his kind to reproduce A-sexually. That may hinder the psychological development of the race. Better to build a female version. Perhaps with a third sex that acts as a neutered nest keeper creature?
So.. male and female would reproduce, then lay eggs, the children of which would be cared for and educated by a purpose built neuter sex of the Jaras? It may be wise to, if we go this path, make the neuters completely deadly individuals(long lifespan, for wisdom?), to better protect the offpsring.

[racnor]

Leto specifically said he liked having a purpose, so we don't need to force him into anything. He might actually get pissed if we vaccinate too much.

As for the spores, I also think that they would have little effect. So what if they are "resistant to death magic" Maher will just turn up the death power until the resistance is overcome, or have his clerics burn it away. with necromancy, the casualties won't even hurt. As for the empire, they'll just quarantine and slaughter any carriers. They can easily suppress panic, and they have the reserves.

Aside from that, we could just use people carrying spores. That's what laskus does.

[Remuthra]

What a shame that the Fungus Spawn are already that...
Seriously, what makes the Sleepers different than the Spawn?

Also, while I'm not quoting and cropping his post, I agree with gman.
1. Seriously, why are you not responding to our arguments about the Sleepers?
2. Doubly seriously, what is the difference that makes Fungus Spawn "Oh, cool, it's fine" while Sleepers are "OH GOD WMD NO ONE WILL LIKE US"? Is it that the Sleepers retain intelligence after transformation? That they still look human? That they can spread spores outside of combat?
3. Don't try to use a sword as a plowshare. Beating a sword into a plowshare is fine when the sword isn't a sentient being, in which case let it choose if it wants to be a sword, plowshare, helm, or whatever.
4. If it's munchkinning to try and find clever ways to defeat a far superior foe, than I'm a munchkin, David's a munchkin, every dragonslayer of myth who didn't charge at the fire-breathing beast like a fool is a munchkin, Frodo and the Fellowship were munchkins, etc. All of them found ways other than direct confrontation to defeat a foe which would destroy them in a head-on confrontation, which is all I expect the Fungus Sleepers to do.

Part of the difference is that fungus spawn were an accident. Another difference is that they essentially just hijack the enemy soldiers, and a third is that they aren't a plague and are more easily controlled. But fungus spawn are a bit of a gray moral thing anyway.
I also think the sleepers won't be much better, because we can just spread fungus spores themselves in the food and such. It takes like a minute for the fungus to progress, and then it infects those in close proximity. With some diversionary attacks, we could plant spores and infect half the army in a matter of minutes. And all the mana used to sanitize the supplies and the hijacked populace costs us nothing.

[gman8181]

Remuthra:  I disagree with you for reasons I think have already been made plain but thanks for making me laugh with your munchkin comment, it's been a lousy day and that helped.

Fungus spawn were only partially an accident.  Since then they have proven very useful and controllable.  These things will be just as controllable and will not act in a plague like manner unless we instruct it to.  It won't spread any easier than fungus spawn, just more discreetly.  Fungus spawn aren't stealthy or good at infiltrating.  Our Jara and Laskus are but we only have two.  These new creations will be stealthy and good for infiltration.

As to the effectiveness of the new infiltrator fungi spawn, we'll never know until we try them and I can't make guarantees but please keep in mind something; The other chaos god, supposedly the greatest of them all, that the order gods are still fighting is using something very similar to what we're suggesting right now.  He is using a unit capable of infiltrating the enemy by taking the place of an existing person.  We have been told that the order gods have not come up with any method for identifying these infiltrators yet.  The fungi infiltrator creation that we have been suggesting is practically the same thing, although arguably even better because the way in which it spreads.  If it's been working for the other chaos god then why would it not work for us?  They can't use magic if they don't know who's infected until it's too late.  They also need to know who is infected or at the least where the infection is to use quarantines.  Who's enforcing the quarantine if we infect the soldiers responsible for upholding it?  If our infiltrators spread rapidly enough through the enemy, we will also have reserves, hopefully counteracting theirs.  Laskus spreading spores is nice but that doesn't give us scouts and infiltrators, it just gives us more troops at the enemy's expense.  Our new creation does this as well but also gives us scouts and is more efficient.  Also we only have one Laskus and one Jara.

[Talvara]

I have to admit I havent really read up on everything but here goes.

our fungus spawn is set up to only act violently towards those with hostile intentions. we use them on enemy combatants preferably when they come for us.
If you guys are conceptualising biological weapons to decimate the follower base of another god then... that kinda does push itself out of the Gray area.

Letting loose a zombie like plague in the ranks of an enemy army is an entirely different thing (and okay in my book) to doing something similar to a city.

so yeah what it comes down to for me, is to differentiating between military and civilian targets. And I prefer to fight a strong defence and trying to convert their powerbase peacefully, rather than going after the enemy to eradicate them. I don't think our goal should be to remove all order from the world. but instead to restore a balance and to free the oppressed minds from tyranny.

[Remuthra]

Remuthra:  I disagree with you for reasons I think have already been made plain but thanks for making me laugh with your munchkin comment, it's been a lousy day and that helped.

Fungus spawn were only partially an accident.  Since then they have proven very useful and controllable.  These things will be just as controllable and will not act in a plague like manner unless we instruct it to.  It won't spread any easier than fungus spawn, just more discreetly.  Fungus spawn aren't stealthy or good at infiltrating.  Our Jara and Laskus are but we only have two.  These new creations will be stealthy and good for infiltration.

As to the effectiveness of the new infiltrator fungi spawn, we'll never know until we try them and I can't make guarantees but please keep in mind something; The other chaos god, supposedly the greatest of them all, that the order gods are still fighting is using something very similar to what we're suggesting right now.  He is using a unit capable of infiltrating the enemy by taking the place of an existing person.  We have been told that the order gods have not come up with any method for identifying these infiltrators yet.  The fungi infiltrator creation that we have been suggesting is practically the same thing, although arguably even better because the way in which it spreads.  If it's been working for the other chaos god then why would it not work for us?  They can't use magic if they don't know who's infected until it's too late.  They also need to know who is infected or at the least where the infection is to use quarantines.  Who's enforcing the quarantine if we infect the soldiers responsible for upholding it?  If our infiltrators spread rapidly enough through the enemy, we will also have reserves, hopefully counteracting theirs.  Laskus spreading spores is nice but that doesn't give us scouts and infiltrators, it just gives us more troops at the enemy's expense.  Our new creation does this as well but also gives us scouts and is more efficient.  Also we only have one Laskus and one Jara.

We seem to partly be talking about different infiltrator concepts here, so I'll just call the type that murders the host and goes crazy Type A and the one that turns people into sleeper agents Type B. I am talking above about Type A.

[kaian-a-coel]

I'm okay with a defensive, or at least localized bio-weapon. The guys that got turned into fungus spawn (the actual kind) earned it. They were soldiers, coming with the intent of killing. No innocents were killed this way and none will.
Large-scale zombie plague? NO.

And for Leto, when I said I'd like him "peaceful", I meant "not laksus-like". He shouldn't enjoy killing that much. He will be doing his duty, and be proud of that, but the act of killing by himself would bring him no joy. The fact that the act of killing served us will.
I don't want to bend a sword into a farm tool, I want the sword not to be bloodthirsty.

And we will have more jaras. We should spend mana into more jaras rather than ZOMBIIIIIEEESS!!! (braiiiiiiiiins!).

DAMMIT TRIPLE NINJAS! why so much?

[jaass]

I prefer for Leto have two different sides to his personality one that is peaceful, warm to the people who know him. Another that is cold professionalism when we sent him to our enemies.

My quote from earlier on how I think how Leto personality should be.

[GreatWyrmGold]

As for the spores, I also think that they would have little effect. So what if they are "resistant to death magic" Maher will just turn up the death power until the resistance is overcome, or have his clerics burn it away. with necromancy, the casualties won't even hurt.

I never intended to use them against Maher, and that would A. require a lot more magic than normal, and B. require him to notice the infection...which, if done right, they won't.

As for the empire, they'll just quarantine and slaughter any carriers. They can easily suppress panic, and they have the reserves.

Only if they...wait, what? Oh, yeah. I hadn't thought of this...

Aside from that, we could just use people carrying spores. That's what laskus does.

Not accomplishing same purpose. Not subtle. Etc.

Part of the difference is that fungus spawn were an accident.

And yet we use them, and no one rejects us for it.

Another difference is that they essentially just hijack the enemy soldiers,

Yes, but Fungus Spawn do as well.

and a third is that they aren't a plague and are more easily controlled.

Again, controls have been suggested time and time again. Haven't you been paying attention? I even agreed to them and expanded on the idea once they were brought up!

I also think the sleepers won't be much better, because we can just spread fungus spores themselves in the food and such. It takes like a minute for the fungus to progress, and then it infects those in close proximity. With some diversionary attacks, we could plant spores and infect half the army in a matter of minutes. And all the mana used to sanitize the supplies and the hijacked populace costs us nothing.

Let's look at this bit by bit...
1. Can the Fungus Spawn spread without anyone knowing? Huh. No they can't. Funny, that was pretty much the whole point of the Sleepers' myriad methods of spread.
2. You have a lot of faith in the Fungus Spawn. Much more than I would...
3. "And all the mana used to sanitize the supplies and the hijacked populace costs us nothing." Huh?
4. The Sleepers aren't soldiers, they're sleeper agents! What gave you the idea that they would be used like Fungus Spawn??

so yeah what it comes down to for me, is to differentiating between military and civilian targets. And I prefer to fight a strong defence and trying to convert their powerbase peacefully, rather than going after the enemy to eradicate them. I don't think our goal should be to remove all order from the world. but instead to restore a balance and to free the oppressed minds from tyranny.

If only I had come up with some extra methods of control once this issue was brought up the first time, pages ago...oh wait I did.

We seem to partly be talking about different infiltrator concepts here, so I'll just call the type that murders the host and goes crazy Type A and the one that turns people into sleeper agents Type B. I am talking above about Type A.

...
THE SLEEPERS ARE SLEEPER AGENTS!!!

Large-scale zombie plague? NO.

What part of "control" does no one get?

And for Leto, when I said I'd like him "peaceful", I meant "not laksus-like". He shouldn't enjoy killing that much. He will be doing his duty, and be proud of that, but the act of killing by himself would bring him no joy. The fact that the act of killing served us will.
I don't want to bend a sword into a farm tool, I want the sword not to be bloodthirsty.

Agreed. You have to admit that there's a bit of vagueness in your wording...

And we will have more jaras. We should spend mana into more jaras rather than ZOMBIIIIIEEESS!!! (braiiiiiiiiins!).

1. Oh, of course. I never suggested we do the Sleepers right now. Although, have you considered that the Fungus Sleepers would most likely be as sentient as the host? (And certainly above Romero-zed intelligence.)

DAMMIT TRIPLE NINJAS! why so much?

QUADRUPLE ninjas, beat that!

[Koliup]

I prefer for Leto have two different sides to his personality one that is peaceful, warm to the people who know him. Another that is cold professionalism when we sent him to our enemies.

My quote from earlier on how I think how Leto personality should be.

Leto is an individual with his own personality. We can't force him to be anything. We can only guide him.

[Remuthra]

What part of "control" does no one get?

I think most people just don't believe the control will work. We've all seen too many horror movies.

On another note, the chaos golems.
1. We should give them a machine gun which fires superheated projectiles replacing the flamethrower. Harder for Cold to stop, longer range, and lighter than a flamethrower. Besides, it's a minigun on fire.

2. I was thinking of giving the golems the name Reborn, owing to the fact that they would be empty bodies for our souls to command.