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[kahn1234]

To not oveflood the IC:

I like it. a lot of that we could do ourselves in very little time for very little mana

We could, but that's wasting time and effort. And I am not sure that this will cheaper in mana than letting booners to do it, In fact I suspect that opposite is true. If Donut will do such small things then It's like killing flies with nukes.

Why do we need skilled farmers? 

That's getting old

a) to command\heal stems
b) to raise any plant we want much faster ( like adult plant in seconds, several times per day per booner)
c) To maintain-upgrade-expand any plant related infrastructure
d) To gather plant magic knowledge (More people practicing = more ideas)
e) To make our people more important (Not Mana generators)
f) To influence any visitors (BTW, we have 3 villagers that didn't convert)
g) To get chance to have more Eldricks, when we'll have mana to support many potent boons ( They'll get the needed experience doing many minor jobs)
h) To have someone able to protect our land and tend for village if something happens to us ( who knows? Maybe we'll get incapacitated for days by something. Or will need to leave in far lands(other planes)  for long. Or choose to start war for worshipers in Cares. Or will need to spend time in fortress in the offensive operation)
i) To have skilled mages to participate in future battles (no, minor plant booners aren't useles in combat, Eldrick proved that. And no, death of the booned is not that bad for mana. We can either use the skilled soul in a useful way or put it into the afterlife to generate mana(and I think their skills will be useful for afterlife defense, too))

Our agriculture is not merely food. Our agriculture is everything Boosting farming = boosting everything

Response to your list, in same order:

A) oh, silly me, i thought that was what MILITARY COMMANDERS were for. as for healing, change them so they self heal/reconstruct and we're all set. And do we even need to heal them? they grow so fast they are almost disposable.
B) The plants we already have grow in a day already, any more plants we make (probably variations of the melons) will also grow in a day. they also expand and spread very rapidly too. point is null and void.
C)What infrastructure would that be? Roads? already have enough of them. Shroom buildings? noone less than potent booner can do that effectively. I also think that to create a road of reasonable quality would need at least potent boon and a lot of skill too.
D) Fair point, although i'm not sure what more they could learn about plants. they arent exactly complex organisms tat have their own habits.....
E) Our people ARE important. Everything we are doing is to protect them or make their life better.
F) I Sorta think thats the job of the priesthood (which i assume currently consists of Azula and Eldrich) not farmers.
G) Fair point. Although, we wouldn't need ten. 5, probably, but 10 is too much. especially for our current size.
H) Oh, silly me, i though that was the reason we were building an ARMY. Dragons, Chaos Golems, Firedrakes, Giant Spiders, Saps/Stems etc etc etc. In Short, we would be relying on them, not booned people.
I) See H.

Of cause, plant booners are not that useful for cattle (except raising food for them ) , if we decide to go that way we need other kind of boons...  (but why the hell we need milk if we have fire nectar? And why raise cattle for  meat when we have bloodmelons? )

Fire nectar cannot be used for a dairy industry. milk can. I though that was obvious.
And bloodmelons are also used by our animal creations, and only have one taste (unlike the vegetable/fruit melons which have a variety of tastes and uses in food preparation). We need a meat industry because it could give our people food variety (all the different types of meat and other animal products) and it can earn us money. Again, i though this was obvious.

You know what your problem kahn1234?. You are making vague assumptions and then act like they are 100% proven fact.  Like the one that  plant booners can only do very minor things (while Eldrick made bushes from nothing, mid combat, in seconds) or that it's cheap to increase the afterlife.

Eldrich made small bushes tat tripped his enemies. He only made three and nearly ended up getting gutted multiple times. and anyway, what was the point of creating an army if we decide to just use booned humans?

I assume its cheap to increase the size of the afterlife because once the base of something is made (whether in real life or fantasy) it is much easier to build FROM it and expand it, as all the hard work (or at least most of the hard work) is done in the initial creation.

And is extremely hypocritical of you to berate me for assumptions when you are ASSUMING that it will be costly to expand the afterlife and you are ASSUMING that boons will hold any significant sway over the battlefield. Look at Mahers major boon equipped priests? they got slaughtered when they came up against real resistance. The same would happen to us as we know fuck all about the armies of our enemies.

The reason we dont know about our enemies? because YOU are so god damned vocal against proper scouts, leaving us blind. Its one of the main rules of Sun Tzu's Art of War (which i have read cover to cover): Know your enemy.

We dont, because we dont have scouts or spies, therefore we cant plan accordingly.

EDIT: And before you even mention the Justicars, they were no doubt elite soldiers in the first place, with batle experience from the EoT's wars against our Chaotic Predecessors. They still got hammered by Laskus and Tiberius. Whereas our two major/potent booned 'priests'? nearly sliced and diced multiple times.

[Talvara]

I don't mind getting a few underlings for Azula and Eldrick ( I say underlings but I mean more as in nameless colleagues ) who can back them up for 'special missions'

booning the entire population is just a no, but I think thats been settled by now.

our followers aren't our military. and they shouldn't be. our followers (and I would say by proxy their souls) are precious. and need to be protected at all cost.
after giving it thought I guess this is also why I am opposed to trying to making the stems into a full fledged race.

with stems becoming followers... that 'protection urge' would also move onto them. and we would have to make a new army. (or bite the bullet and accept that we'll have followers and souls in the fire zone)



About livestock, I don't feel the need to go into that. We more or less have a plant/insect/(lizard)/(and mole thing...) thing going on. and I would simply love to keep things focussed around that. we can fill traditional farming aspects with a plant/chaos alternative (like we did with the blood melons)



I really don't care about what is more powerfull or not. I just care about what makes sense.

edit: and yes, I do realise that what makes sense is highly subjective
I'm just trying to outline my thoughts.

[kahn1234]

I don't mind getting a few underlings for Azula and Eldrick ( I say underlings but I mean more as in nameless colleagues ) who can back them up for 'special missions'

booning the entire population is just a no, but I think thats been settled by now.

our followers aren't our military. and they shouldn't be. our followers (and I would say by proxy their souls) are precious. and need to be protected at all cost.
after giving it thought I guess this is also why I am opposed to trying to making the stems into a full fledged race.

with stems becoming followers... that 'protection urge' would also move onto them. and we would have to make a new army. (or bite the bullet and accept that we'll have followers and souls in the fire zone)



About livestock, I don't feel the need to go into that. We more or less have a plant/insect/(lizard)/(and mole thing...) thing going on. and I would simply love to keep things focussed around that. we can fill traditional farming aspects with a plant/chaos alternative (like we did with the blood melons)



I really don't care about what is more powerfull or not. I just care about what makes sense.

edit: and yes, I do realise that what makes sense is highly subjective
I'm just trying to outline my thoughts.

if we started a 'traditional' dairy and meat industries, we'd earn even more money, which we could use to buy adamantine and steel from the dwarves.

[Talvara]

I don't mind getting a few underlings for Azula and Eldrick ( I say underlings but I mean more as in nameless colleagues ) who can back them up for 'special missions'

booning the entire population is just a no, but I think thats been settled by now.

our followers aren't our military. and they shouldn't be. our followers (and I would say by proxy their souls) are precious. and need to be protected at all cost.
after giving it thought I guess this is also why I am opposed to trying to making the stems into a full fledged race.

with stems becoming followers... that 'protection urge' would also move onto them. and we would have to make a new army. (or bite the bullet and accept that we'll have followers and souls in the fire zone)



About livestock, I don't feel the need to go into that. We more or less have a plant/insect/(lizard)/(and mole thing...) thing going on. and I would simply love to keep things focussed around that. we can fill traditional farming aspects with a plant/chaos alternative (like we did with the blood melons)



I really don't care about what is more powerfull or not. I just care about what makes sense.

edit: and yes, I do realise that what makes sense is highly subjective
I'm just trying to outline my thoughts.

if we started a 'traditional' dairy and meat industries, we'd earn even more money, which we could use to buy adamantine and steel from the dwarves.

the same can be said about plant/chaos alternatives . truth be told it doesn't really matter. it comes down to flavour text and maybe a few complications/perks that I suspect would balance themselves out.

edit: my preference goes to a more focussed theme and flavour obviously. but its not that big of a deal.

[kahn1234]

Why have a focused theme? we are Chaos, we shouldnt have a 'theme'.

[Talvara]

Why have a focused theme? we are Chaos, we shouldnt have a 'theme'.

This is a matter of opinion, I can only voice mine and try to defend it.
I respect yours but disagree.

the only reasons I have for a focussed theme is because its 'cool'. and it can be of help to make the narrative stronger.

Why is Krait sporting snakes?
why is Maher a bonehead?
why is the tranquil order using a bunch of paladin jockeys?

because it makes story telling easier and stronger.

chaos being chaotic is a fine justification for being all over the place and it could work, I just don't think its a fun one.

[Rolepgeek]

Because Maher views his primary domain as Death? Because Krait feels the same about snakes? Because the Justicars are their elite people, knights with magic, and knights alone ruled the battlefield during the middle ages?

I think our theme should be life in general. Not just one family or genus. Besides the fact that it makes it more difficult to tailor one's army against a diverse foe, a variety of troops allows us to avoid unnecessary redundancy(a certain amount is needed, of course),and tailor the. To situations as needed. I'm all for expanding the afterlife, but I also know it's going to cost quite a bit. When you build a school, and then want to add two more wings to said school, each the size of the original? It's going to be just as hard as building the original one, if not harder, should you connect them, and need to break some walls down to put doors and halls in.

[SingularByte]

How about if we were to try to expand the afterlife, but have hard limits on it? Something like only spending 50 mana or 8 hours, whichever comes first. Then, if it isn't big enough, we'll at least have a better idea of how hard it is.

If we're worried about losing track of time, just tell someone to contact the afterlife with the Tree of Fire once the 8 hours are up.

[Talvara]

...

If we're worried about losing track of time, just tell someone to contact the afterlife with the Tree of Fire once the 8 hours are up.

brilliant idea.

[Remuthra]

...

If we're worried about losing track of time, just tell someone to contact the afterlife with the Tree of Fire once the 8 hours are up.

brilliant idea.

Indeed.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

A) oh, silly me, i thought that was what MILITARY COMMANDERS were for. as for healing, change them so they self heal/reconstruct and we're all set. And do we even need to heal them? they grow so fast they are almost disposable.

And what military commanders do we have? Saps? They are just stronger version, brutes, not commanders

B) The plants we already have grow in a day already, any more plants we make (probably variations of the melons) will also grow in a day. they also expand and spread very rapidly too. point is null and void.
And long term disposabilty will not help 

Saps grow for 4-7 days, the rosebush grow even slower, corrupted trees and shrums - even slower: so another bad assumption - everything we make grow instantly. Even melons can benefit from getting accelerated.  Raised in a day, good? Raised in a second is still better

C)What infrastructure would that be? Roads? already have enough of them. Shroom buildings? noone less than potent booner can do that effectively. I also think that to create a road of reasonable quality would need at least potent boon and a lot of skill too.

Again assumption based on nothing, that team of minor booners can't raise a shroom. ( I am sure that minor repair isn't a problem) Any roads need to be upgraded  and maintained (and we need to build one to Ceres).  Also our fence(s). Also ring of corrupted trees. Also our Tree of Fire. Also we may need some water supply, can be plant based. Also beautification. Also weed control. Also all that useful things that can grow

D) Fair point, although i'm not sure what more they could learn about plants. they arent exactly complex organisms tat have their own habits.....

Not about plants, about plant magic

E) Our people ARE important. Everything we are doing is to protect them or make their life better.

That sounds awfully similar to how bad parents treat their children. 

F) I Sorta think thats the job of the priesthood (which i assume currently consists of Azula and Eldrich) not farmers.

Both Azula and Eldrich are... farmers. Yet, we chose to give them power

G) Fair point. Although, we wouldn't need ten. 5, probably, but 10 is too much. especially for our current size.

There are no such things like too much, when we talk about skilled mages. And not everone needs a talent. Oh, and we switched to 4minor\2major suggestion some time ago

H) Oh, silly me, i though that was the reason we were building an ARMY. Dragons, Chaos Golems, Firedrakes, Giant Spiders, Saps/Stems etc etc etc. In Short, we would be relying on them, not booned people.

In short - our people are kids and should be treated as such?
1) Booned people have advantages over natural beasts.
2) There are no such thing as too many combatants, I am not offering instead, I am offering in addition
3) Our villagers will have to fight sooner or later, when the village will get assaulted. Better give them ability to defend themselves
4) I never offered to threat our people like cannon fodder, they aren't front line troops, but support
5) Military role is a bonus to civilian one
6) Let's strip Azula's fire boon. It's useful only in combat and we spend 8 mana per turn to maintain it ( that's sarcasm, specially for you, kahn1234. Cause you missed all my sarcasm attempts before)

  Look at Mahers major boon equipped priests?

Look at Major booned Maher's servant Laksus.... Who singlehandedly killed all that  golems and nearly killed Tiberius. Yep, he is vampire, but without that lightning boon he would be much, much weaker
As for the death of the priest, problem is that they had no decents support, as skeletons and zombies are meh, and they were unskilled priests from a backward village. When we'll meet his skilled and trained necromancers(lightningthrowers)  from Maherport, then we will talk about their effectiveness. I quite expect that they'll like our life based troops without any life magic to support them
And had we  got no "help" from the orcs, those priests would be enough to kill out our village


As for scouting - Ask Krait, Ask Krait, Ask Krait, Ask Krait
Hell, maybe we can even make him give us several hundreds of scouts if we do some favor for him (Or make some version of scout for us) . That's much more mana effective way to scout, then making flying scouts ourself..

I will be against making abything flying without Krait's assistance. That's what allies are for

[Remuthra]

Saps grow for 4-7 days, the rosebush grow even slower, corrupted trees and shrums - even slower: so another bad assumption - everything we make grow instantly. Even melons can benefit from getting accelerated.  Raised in a day, good? Raised in a second is still better

As far as the melons and shrooms go, we have plenty of housing and food, so we don't need to speedgrow them. And maybe a team of minorbooners can do it too, but they won't get as much xp from it because it's shared between them.

There are no such things like too much, when we talk about skilled mages. And not everone needs a talent. Oh, and we switched to 4minor\2major suggestion some time ago

I would say too much is definately a reality, if you have a surplus of booners to the point where you need to find things for them to do, you have to many booners. Also, we could use more booners, I would give like 3 minor boons and then upgrade them as soon as they gain skill.

1) Booned people have advantages over natural beasts.

That's why we see them used much more by other gods. We could use a few clerics, but we don't have many worshippers right now.

[quote6) Let's strip Azula's fire boon. It's useful only in combat and we spend 8 mana per turn to maintain it ( that's sarcasm, specially for you, kahn1234. Cause you missed all my sarcasm attempts before)
][/quote]
It may be only useful in combat, but I don't see us being at peace anytime soon, and boons that are specifically for combat are more efficient at it. ( Minor fire boon- short range fire blast, minor life boon- vine trip)

[3) Our villagers will have to fight sooner or later, when the village will get assaulted. Better give them ability to defend themselves/quote]
Not for a while will we not have our army ready, there's plenty of time to train a couple fire booners. Getting about 2 combat focused clerics is a good mid term project.

Look at Major booned Maher's servant Laksus.... Who singlehandedly killed all that  golems and nearly killed Tiberius. Yep, he is vampire, but without that lightning boon he would be much, much weaker
As for the death of the priest, problem is that they had no decents support, as skeletons and zombies are meh, and they were unskilled priests from a backward village. When we'll meet his skilled and trained necromancers(lightningthrowers)  from Maherport, then we will talk about their effectiveness. I quite expect that they'll like our life based troops without any life magic to support them
And had we  got no "help" from the orcs, those priests would be enough to kill out our village

Laksus was not a booned servant, he was one of Maher's lieutenants, just like Tiberius. It looked to me like it was part of his powers, not an extra boon thrown in. How do we know any of that about his priests? No random assumptions. And the main reason the death clerics were so much trouble is that we are a life god. If our primary force was fire elementals, for instance, the clerics would not have been such a problem. And how do you know that he would have destroyed us without the orcs there? We killed a good portion of their army ourselves, and with the lieutenant gone, Tiberius might have been able to mop up.

As for scouting - Ask Krait, Ask Krait, Ask Krait, Ask Krait
Hell, maybe we can even make him give us several hundreds of scouts if we do some favor for him (Or make some version of scout for us) . That's much more mana effective way to scout, then making flying scouts ourself..

I will be against making abything flying without Krait's assistance. That's what allies are for

+1 to all that.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

but they won't get as much xp from it because it's shared between them.

Lol, what a brilliant example of PC game logic
Making a shroom = get X XP... If 5 people raise a shroom they get X\5 XP
I am loling hard.

The truth is that experience is based on intelligence\talent,  hours of practice, education and relative difficulty of solved problems

if you have a surplus of booners to the point where you need to find things for them to do, you have to many booners

I trust our booners to have their own brains on finding what to do
And that's a difference between us, you see our worshipers as a managenerators and direct subjects. I see them as our friends, they provide us with mana, we gratefully repay them for it

Laksus was not a booned servant, he was one of Maher's lieutenants, just like Tiberius. 

We may ask Laksus, but as I see he was just a powergungry vampire who decided to worship Laksus for power and got boons. Most likely, he is not Maher's creation

As far as the melons and shrooms go, we have plenty of housing and food, so we don't need to speedgrow them.

Even if that's true ( Our food demand is raising due to spiders\firedrakes\dragons and food is a pretty nice trade good. And more shrooms may be raised for some luxorious, economical or industrial purposes) we can always  send some booned as missionaries in Cares ( sure, homeless would be grateful for a shroom, even if minor booned will need a week to raise it)  or help allies. But as I said there are many jobs that can't be done fully (improving the rose bush, beautification, making roads better, teaching kids, upgrading stems to saps and beyond)
Booned will always  have a job, even without our orders

It may be only useful in combat, but I don't see us being at peace anytime soon, and boons that are specifically for combat are more efficient at it.

Damn, I said that it's sarcasm...

[Remuthra]

Lol, what a brilliant example of PC game logic
Making a shroom = get X XP... If 5 people raise a shroom they get X\5 XP
I am loling hard.

Considering this is a game, and is in fact even being done on a PC, it's a good assumption to make.

I trust our booners to have their own brains on finding what to do
And that's a difference between us, you see our worshipers as a managenerators and direct subjects. I see them as our friends, they provide us with mana, we gratefully repay them for it

I see it as a mutualistic relationship. Our people have a duty to provide us with mana and a workforce. We have a duty to protect our worshippers and that means doing what will help everyone most.

We may ask Laksus, but as I see he was just a powergungry vampire who decided to worship Laksus for power and got boons. Most likely, he is not Maher's creation

He seemed to be, since Maher saw Tiberius and Laksus as the same level of creation. (lieutenant- come to mean powerful single created unit) But let's ask Laksus then.

Even if that's true ( Our food demand is raising due to spiders\firedrakes\dragons and food is a pretty nice trade good. And more shrooms may be raised for some luxorious, economical or industrial purposes) we can always  send some booned as missionaries in Cares ( sure, homeless would be grateful for a shroom, even if minor booned will need a week to raise it)  or help allies. But as I said there are many jobs that can't be done fully (improving the rose bush, beautification, making roads better, teaching kids, upgrading stems to saps and beyond)
Booned will always  have a job, even without our orders

1. We have enough food now, and our bloodmelons will continue to spread, likely growing with our animal population. If not, we can deal with it when we actually know we have a problem. 2. Homeless? What homeless? We have housing to spare. 3.We should wait until we know how effective our missionary was before sending out more. 4. Our current booner isn't fully occupied. 5. Life booned will have more impact when we have something valuable to grow; food isn't that valuable. 6. How can unskilled booners teach kids?

Damn, I said that it's sarcasm...

That may be, but it was misplaced sarcasm. I never suggested stripping anyone of their boons, I support adding a few new booners. And I think you may be confusing me with kahn.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

We should wait until we know how effective our missionary was before sending out more.

When did we sent a missionery? IMO, we gave a boon to the priest and never sent him away