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[Jbg97]

Words.

Sentience is experiences. Protein chains and bacteria and even sponges(apparently) and whatnot lack this. They're robots. Input output. Sapience is thought(and yes, language is a side effect), plus reasoning. What we're using right now to discuss this(or should be). Arguably any being that can grasp hefty ideas. Such as ceasing to be in all your entirety, or, possibly, the idea of god. Is sapient. As a side note, apparently some consider chimps sapient, and whether or not it is true it is very interesting.

A bit irrelevant to the issue at hand--the disagreeing assumptions about the intellect of troglodytes.

Actually, sentience is the ability to sense things, sapience is to actually have intelligence i.e tool building and advancements. Dogs, cats, and chimps have sentience but not sapience. Humans have sapience. Also, giving our servants sapience is a bad idea, just look at the Men of Iron from Warhammer 40k.

[Koliup]

Words.

Sentience is experiences. Protein chains and bacteria and even sponges(apparently) and whatnot lack this. They're robots. Input output. Sapience is thought(and yes, language is a side effect), plus reasoning. What we're using right now to discuss this(or should be). Arguably any being that can grasp hefty ideas. Such as ceasing to be in all your entirety, or, possibly, the idea of god. Is sapient. As a side note, apparently some consider chimps sapient, and whether or not it is true it is very interesting.

A bit irrelevant to the issue at hand--the disagreeing assumptions about the intellect of troglodytes.

Actually, sentience is the ability to sense things, sapience is to actually have intelligence i.e tool building and advancements. Dogs, cats, and chimps have sentience but not sapience. Humans have sapience. Also, giving our servants sapience is a bad idea, just look at the Men of Iron from Warhammer 40k.

That's the gist of what was being said.
Also, Leto has sapience, and you don't see him Men of Ironing it up.
And keep in mind the Men of Iron were possibly touched by the evil chaos native to the setting.

[Rolepgeek]

Plus, giving a computer sapience is never a good idea.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I fail to understand how making angels capable of repairing our afterlife would make them any less able to defend it by fighting.  I'm not completely opposed to butterflies, it just seems like a silly way to spend time and mana when the same job could be done more efficiently in another way.  For example, say you hire a person to watch your dog while you go on vacation.  Would you hire three people; one to feed the dog one, one to give the dog water and a third to walk the dog?  Wouldn't it make more sense to hire one person to just do all three of those things considering they are all so closely connected?  Having a person only give your dog food does not make them the master of feeding dogs any more than having a person do all three makes them a jack of all trades, master of none.

The difference is, defense and maintenance are both skilled tasks. You can't really be a master of all trades.

A person is not always trained as a soldier and engineer because it requires training to do both jobs and it would be difficult for one person to learn and excel at both fields.

Precisely.

However, you also want to make butterflies that are able to repair the afterlife.  I presume these butterflies will not be trained in the field of repairing our afterlife; rather it would be something that we imprint into their natural instincts and behavior.  If we can do that for butterflies, then we could do the same for our angels.  They would also be able to instinctively repair the afterlife as well as fight and it would not require any training to do so.  This in my opinion nullifies the major argumentative factor of having angels be able to do both as neither would require time for training and they would not lose out on any effectiveness from being able to accomplish both tasks.

There are several considerations.
First off, no mind can hold an infinite amount of knowledge. If I were designing this game, it would be exponentially more expensive to design minds more and more powerful.
Second off, we would probably be augmenting the repair capabilities with natural abilities, which we would then need to cram onto these "angels" instead.
Third off, the afterlife isn't going to stop breaking down just because the angels are needed to defend some point.
Fourth off, angels can't pollinate flowers.

Another thing that factors into why people are not trained as both soldiers and engineers is because if you lose one, you lose both.  Keep in mind though, our creations will be in our afterlife.  If we do make butterflies simply for repairing things and the void spawn manage to get through, there is nothing more the butterflies can do and their usefulness is expended.  The angels on the other hand would still be able to fight after the void spawn break in and would no be in any way nullified as the situation changes.  The angels do not need to fight unless the void spawn break in, so up until that point they can spend their time patrolling and maintaining our afterlife.  If we make butterflies to maintain the afterlife, our angels will have no purpose unless the void spawn break through.  Thus our creations would not be operating in the most effective manner possible.

Wrong. The angels could act as a sort of "police" force in the Afterlife, and we would definitely need the Afterlife to be repaired if the Voidspawn were flowing in.

Words.

It's perfectly relevant to the issue at hand. Not only in how much work we'll have to do to make them smart, if lacking in the entirety of free will. But also as to whether or not they're better than animals. We can ask Uristiel what kind of civilization and technological progress the Troglodytes have made, but I'm doubting it's anything better than simple tool use. Something even crows and monkeys can do.

The exact definition of sentient as you use it isn't the problem.
Troglodytes don't lack free will. They have a soul, they have free will.
Oh, and guess what? For a while, humans had nothing better than "simple tool use." Put a modern office worker in the jungle; if he lives, he'll start with "simple tools," because that's all he knows how to make. You can't judge potential by what is present alone.

It's easier that way if you're expecting a fight, too. And perhaps they're more intelligent than intelligent canines or intelligent parrots. But they're incapable of expressing that intelligence in a useful way, like escaping their cages. They're pretty much living like animals. That missing part of their soul is where whatever, or whoever made them forgot to fill in the blanks in their brains and minds, and it was filled with animal instinct. We can do better.

Again, you're making assumptions about A. the mental capabilities of the troglodytes and B. what I mean. I can at least prove your assumptions on the latter point wrong.
I am NOT opposed to modifying the troglodytes, assuming they do not object. I am merely opposed to making them slaves, whether shackled by iron or their minds.

See, that's the thing, if we mold them into something else, like bug people for example, it would be as thought they were a bug person that had a dream they were a Troglodyte. Only now the bug person is awake. If we make them enjoy serving us, there is no work they won't take some enjoyment from. Why would we need to give them utterly detestable jobs, when we have a bunch of slots for expansion in the not so detestable sectors? We can automate the crappy stuff with biological machines. The difference between building something to work for us, and mindraping something instead, is that in the first case, that is all it knows. It's hard to explain, but imagine that time when you found out about how much fun utilizing your sexual organs was. Now, imagine instead they did nothing beforehand, and then a wizard came along and bestowed the power of pleasure upon you in your adult life. That would be an incredibly distressing discovery, in all likelihood.

You don't get it.
Making a creature enjoy basic, menial labor--and only said labor--means that it will never be able to rise in station, because it will never try. It's as bad as passing a law saying they have to do this work, if not worse. Remember that HPatMoR quote you seemed to agree with?
In any case, we are taking self-aware beings (troglodytes do have a soul) and turning them into creatures that only like labor. However you define the transformation cannot change this.

I think it's possible because it seems to be possible. Grumugga has devoted orcs, and we can make plant robots to work for us. It's not much of a stretch for born-zealots.

You don't know that she made the orcs are mindraped or whatnot into being zealots. It's more probable to be the environment the orcs raise their kids in.

As for slashing incomes. Come on, you really didn't do the math? 10+.5 equals 10.5, not 5. Whereas 10/2 equals 5. The Empire would be slashing their income by removing free will from beings that already have it. Instead of bolstering their mana income with new, half soul creatures(something they're unlikely to do, order and whatnot). So, what would it do to us? Give us more mana.

I can't believe this. You keep wavering back and forth. I have no idea what you're trying to say. Somehow it would cost the Empire tons more to make their people love serving them and hard labor than it would to make our trogs do the same thing? Unless you somehow interpreted me as asking why the Empire didn't turn their peoples' souls into troglodyte-level ones, in which case I would advise you to actually read what I post.
I was asking why it would cost more for the Empire to perform the exact same mental modifications to people as you propose to do to the troglodytes.

I'd also like to question what we can gain by basically making them slaves over not doing so. On one hand, workers that can't rebel; on the other hand, the loss of the moral high ground and abandoning our central moral tenant of free will.

[Origami_Psycho]

The only things that have free will is Jara, Tiberius and Laksus.  Other than that, we've been making plenty of things with no free will.  Intelligence is not proportional to how much free will they're given.

[GreatWyrmGold]

The only things that have free will is Jara, Tiberius and Laksus.  Other than that, we've been making plenty of things with no free will.  Intelligence is not proportional to how much free will they're given.

True, but we didn't make the troglodytes. They came with souls. Not as good for prayer as humans', but still souls.

[Koliup]

WORDS.

First, I'm going to address the math:
Income is what you get at the end of the day, this is gross minus upkeep costs. Dig it?
Now, we know that Troglodytes have weaker souls, and therefor produce less mana. Dig it?
So, if the Empire were to grasp their population by the balls, and then destroy their free will, to, say, the level of a Troglodyte, then everyone in their empire would only produce as much mana as a Troglodyte. And because that amount of mana is less than a free-willed human's, they would be destroying their income. You understand? This would make population control easier, but ruin them otherwise.
The reason this wouldn't have a blowback on us, is because we wouldn't be doing this to our humans(recall; at no point did I talk about doing anything but making fully-willed ubermensch humans), we'd be adding in creatures which have already had their free will destroyed(not by us; we're merely installing a new 'boss'). So what it'd do for us is bolster our income. And we would have an easily controlled secondary population. With the first still producing everything we need. Lobotomizing our human population would slash our mana income, make no mistake.

The Troglodytes may have free will, but they lack any way to express it. The lights are on, but only the 9 year old kid is home. And he's rabid. You know what? Why not judge their potential? Someone set up an obstacle course and aptitude test. That is not a joke. But until we have the information to judge them properly, we'll have to assume they're not very capable at doing anything other than surviving in their native area.

Further, I suggested we make then enjoy working for us in that quote you grabbed. Serving us. Whether that's filling out forms, working the fields, or holding a pike formation together. The creatures would still be able to rise in station. Just because they enjoy serving us, does not mean they are all the same. One might be able to do troop movements in his head, and the other might be able to harvest a field of wheat in ten minutes. We can allocate them properly. Neither does this mean they are entirely without free will. They'd still have their souls, along with the ultimate job satisfaction.

What we gain by creating them is obvious; loyal citizens. We are not abandoning the moral highground in its entirety by making them, we would've lost it when we made the stems. They still have the same amount of free will they would've had when we found them, too. I ask a counter question: what do the Troglodytes have to lose by being transformed? They're missing a chunk of their free will, which we're planning on replacing with devotion anyway. They get food, shelter. Safety. And all we're asking in return is that they work for us, with the benefit of enjoying their jobs.

And that's a great suggestion, transforming then indoctrinating them. We may have to put that one to use. On Maher's citizens! Mwahahaha!

[GreatWyrmGold]

WORDS.

First, I'm going to address the math:
Income is what you get at the end of the day, this is gross minus upkeep costs. Dig it?
Now, we know that Troglodytes have weaker souls, and therefor produce less mana. Dig it?
So, if the Empire were to grasp their population by the balls, and then destroy their free will, to, say, the level of a Troglodyte, then everyone in their empire would only produce as much mana as a Troglodyte. And because that amount of mana is less than a free-willed human's, they would be destroying their income. You understand? This would make population control easier, but ruin them otherwise.
The reason this wouldn't have a blowback on us, is because we wouldn't be doing this to our humans(recall; at no point did I talk about doing anything but making fully-willed ubermensch humans), we'd be adding in creatures which have already had their free will destroyed(not by us; we're merely installing a new 'boss'). So what it'd do for us is bolster our income. And we would have an easily controlled secondary population. With the first still producing everything we need. Lobotomizing our human population would slash our mana income, make no mistake.

I already explained that last post.

As for slashing incomes. Come on, you really didn't do the math? 10+.5 equals 10.5, not 5. Whereas 10/2 equals 5. The Empire would be slashing their income by removing free will from beings that already have it. Instead of bolstering their mana income with new, half soul creatures(something they're unlikely to do, order and whatnot). So, what would it do to us? Give us more mana.

I can't believe this. You keep wavering back and forth. I have no idea what you're trying to say. Somehow it would cost the Empire tons more to make their people love serving them and hard labor than it would to make our trogs do the same thing? Unless you somehow interpreted me as asking why the Empire didn't turn their peoples' souls into troglodyte-level ones, in which case I would advise you to actually read what I post.
I was asking why it would cost more for the Empire to perform the exact same mental modifications to people as you propose to do to the troglodytes.

Emphasis mine...new-mine...to emphasize the important part.

The Troglodytes may have free will, but they lack any way to express it. The lights are on, but only the 9 year old kid is home. And he's rabid.

Baseless assumptions.

You know what? Why not judge their potential? Someone set up an obstacle course and aptitude test. That is not a joke. But until we have the information to judge them properly, we'll have to assume they're not very capable at doing anything other than surviving in their native area.

Or, we could not make any baseless assumptions AT ALL. And if we must, err on the side of intelligence, for safety and such.

Further, I suggested we make then enjoy working for us in that quote you grabbed. Serving us. Whether that's filling out forms, working the fields, or holding a pike formation together. The creatures would still be able to rise in station. Just because they enjoy serving us, does not mean they are all the same. One might be able to do troop movements in his head, and the other might be able to harvest a field of wheat in ten minutes. We can allocate them properly. Neither does this mean they are entirely without free will. They'd still have their souls, along with the ultimate job satisfaction.

It's kinda even worse that we're forcing them to serve us by holding a leash on their happiness.

What we gain by creating them is obvious; loyal citizens.

We have those. We can do the same to the troglodytes.

We are not abandoning the moral highground in its entirety by making them, we would've lost it when we made the stems.

The Stems are soulless.

They still have the same amount of free will they would've had when we found them, too. I ask a counter question: what do the Troglodytes have to lose by being transformed? They're missing a chunk of their free will, which we're planning on replacing with devotion anyway. They get food, shelter. Safety. And all we're asking in return is that they work for us, with the benefit of enjoying their jobs.

Simple. They might not lose their free will technically, but it's comparable to saying that you are free to leave Camp Green Lake at any time. (If you've never read or heard of Holes, Camp Green Lake is set in the middle of a desert.)
Sure, they can not serve us, but they're going to basically go into a depression. The closest RL analogue is stimulants, which "cause happiness". However, after a while, the "happiness" becomes the norm, and the drugs are needed to avoid depression. Explain how a similar, if not exactly-the-same, situation would NOT occur if we did this to the troglodytes.

Seriously, think for a second. You're basically suggesting giving them joy when they serve us, and withdrawing it when they don't. That happiness, the normal for them, leads to depression when they don't. How is that not forcing them to serve us? It would probably be more humane to rob them of their free will than to tether them like that.

[jaass]

Why don't we just test their level of intelligence, if they are not capable we will raise it. Then offer them a job in tunnels by retrieving ingots and bring them to the surface. For exchange for their labor we give them food and a place to rest.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Why don't we just test their level of intelligence, if they are not capable we will raise it. Then offer them a job in tunnels by retrieving ingots and bring them to the surface. For exchange for their labor we give them food and a place to rest.

Agreed, so long as we do not modify their minds to make them more subservient to us somehow.

[racnor]

A job in the soul-boosting radiation tunnels? Perfect. Slow uplifting, in proportion to work done.

[GreatWyrmGold]

A job in the soul-boosting radiation tunnels? Perfect. Slow uplifting, in proportion to work done.

Manarack miners? Even better idea!

[jaass]

More like ingot retrievers for what I have in mind our fire mole is doing a fine job at mining.

[GreatWyrmGold]

More like ingot retrievers for what I have in mind our fire mole is doing a fine job at mining.

The idea was that they could:
A. boost manarack income, and
B. boost their Soul.

[kahn1234]

on a completely different subject.

We need heavy shock troops, correct? for most other uses we have the stems/saps (main troops), dragons (Heavy Air), drakes (Ground support), firejackets (Light air) and spiders (light round support).

Now, think of a tank. A Main Battle Tank.

Now, use life magic to create a bio-machine that looks and operates like a real life tank that can be manned by stems.

They could either fire shaped explosive charges (our alchemist is already making the explosives) or fire flames or spores from its cannon.

It's heavy armour (heavier if we clad it in steel over the hull) would be good against the hoards of he EoT and Maher.