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[Leafsnail]

There is no logic behind "let's take our broken system, shuffle some money around, and drag everyone into it without addressing the problems!", as if the entire problem is dastardly insurance companies hoarding life saving drugs while twirling their mustaches.

You state this as if it's ridiculous but the refusal of insurance companies to actually treat people is a pretty major part of the problem.  There's no need to twirl mustaches because it saves them money.

[GreatJustice]

There is no logic behind "let's take our broken system, shuffle some money around, and drag everyone into it without addressing the problems!", as if the entire problem is dastardly insurance companies hoarding life saving drugs while twirling their mustaches.

You state this as if it's ridiculous but the refusal of insurance companies to actually treat people is a pretty major part of the problem.  There's no need to twirl mustaches because it saves them money.

Naturally. But that wouldn't be a problem if the insurance companies weren't effectively the only game in town. Not to mention the fact that insurance companies actually don't make much in the way of profit, so it's not just greediness that's causing such high expenses. The real problem is the disconnect between the cost and the consumer, and Obamacare doesn't do a thing to solve it except push it under the rug.

[mainiac]

Just because you don't profit doesn't mean you can't be creating perverse incentives... It's almost like you have no regard at all for the issues...

Look, rather then spell out how GJ is talking crap about government insurance programs with nothing to back it up I'll just give this page with links on good information:
http://theincidentaleconomist.com/wordpress/private-vs-public-health-care-cost-control-faq/

Facts have a well known liberal bias.

[Leafsnail]

But that wouldn't be a problem if the insurance companies weren't effectively the only game in town.

So you think that the government has to start providing a robust alternative to the insurance companies in order to provide valid competition?  I completely agree.

[GreatJustice]

Just because you don't profit doesn't mean you can't be creating perverse incentives... It's almost like you have no regard at all for the issues...

Look, rather then spell out how GJ is talking crap about government insurance programs with nothing to back it up I'll just give this page with links on good information:
http://theincidentaleconomist.com/wordpress/private-vs-public-health-care-cost-control-faq/

Facts have a well known liberal bias.

Odd, the vast majority of that "proof" comes down to either "The CBO sez", as if the CBO has ever been near the mark on long term healthcare costs, or "Medicare is cheaper than private alternatives", as if I'm somehow advocating for "Everyone should have private health insurance!". Now, let's look at this from another angle.

Who pays for healthcare?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

So... "private insurance" and Medicare. Both of which I just spent an entire post ranting about, the former in particular.

Now, let's compare healthcare costs to the CPI.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Curious. It seems to decouple in the 1970s, as things such as the HMO Act are passed. Hmmm, I wonder if people being totally disconnected from the expenses has any chance of making them spend more for less? Nah, things like "logic" aren't needed for healthcare reform!

I guess "facts" have a "liberal bias" when half of them are unreliable and the other half are irrelevant.

You know, this argument is starting to sound really familiar. Perhaps it's because we've had this exact same argument many times before, and you don't bother reading my criticisms of the present system and instead spit out  "Generic Comebackatron Response 256" to "Generic Conservative Argument 212". I would have thought you'd have picked at least some of it up at this point, even if you still disagreed.

But that wouldn't be a problem if the insurance companies weren't effectively the only game in town.

So you think that the government has to start providing a robust alternative to the insurance companies in order to provide valid competition?  I completely agree.

Yet government provided healthcare has the exact same problems, again, except the cost is even more diffuse and the government isn't going to hobble itself with regulations relating to coverage. I'd say as a first step the government has to basically toss out the many, many regulations and laws regarding insurance coverage for healthcare, be they mandates that they MUST cover x, y, z (which causes them to cease being insurance companies and makes them third party providers) or mandates/subsidies/etc for employer provided healthcare. Obviously this wouldn't solve every problem, but it would improve things quite a lot. Were insurance only used in drastic circumstances, Americans would have a reason NOT to pay for insanely overpriced, mildly improved medication and would shop around, allowing costs to drop. Insurance providers would have to be far more competitive in terms of coverage, and more dynamic plans would reduce rejections for payouts in drastic circumstances even for those with preexisting conditions, since mandates presently basically make it complete coverage or none. The US pharmaceutical industry would still be a mess, the public-ish plans like Medicare and Medicaid would still be pretty expensive and certain other areas would be lacking, but it would be vastly improved from the present system.

[GlyphGryph]

So apparently the Virginia legislature used the distraction of the inauguration to pull an end run around the law and permanently drop one of the democratic senators seats.

[FearfulJesuit]

Cite? What exactly did they do?

[penguinofhonor]

GOP-backed Bill Could Shift VA Senate Seats

The Senate bill, which squeezed through with a 20-19 vote, shifts the districts of five senate Democrats—three representing Northern Virginia—toward more Republican-voting areas. (See a map of the proposed redistricting in the media box to the right.)

Republican Sen. John Watkins (R-10th) defended the bill as "an effort to create another majority black Senate district," the Associated Press reports. But Democratic leaders and liberal organizations across the state decried the bill as violating the state’s own constitution, along with a move that doesn't allow for public input or comments.

[FearfulJesuit]

Ahh, it's the state senate. That's bad, but not as bad as dropping a national senator.

[Karlito]

Which wouldn't even make sense. Senators don't have districts, they're elected by the state as a whole.

[GlyphGryph]

Basically, it was tied 20-20 and never, ever going to change thanks to heavy gerrymandering. The LtGovernor, while a Republican, had the ability to break ties but absolutely bloody hated the Rpeublicans in the legislator and liked being important and breaking ties.

One of the dems was invited to Obamas inauguration, and the Republicans used it as an opportunity to shove this through.

[Scelly9]

Basically, it was tied 20-20 and never, ever going to change thanks to heavy gerrymandering. The LtGovernor, while a Republican, had the ability to break ties but absolutely bloody hated the Rpeublicans in the legislator and liked being important and breaking ties.

One of the dems was invited to Obamas inauguration, and the Republicans used it as an opportunity to shove this through.

Wow. That is INCREDIBLY dickish.

[Sir Finkus]

Why don't we just fix it?  There is no good reason to do this manually.

[FearfulJesuit]

Basically, it was tied 20-20 and never, ever going to change thanks to heavy gerrymandering. The LtGovernor, while a Republican, had the ability to break ties but absolutely bloody hated the Rpeublicans in the legislator and liked being important and breaking ties.

One of the dems was invited to Obamas inauguration, and the Republicans used it as an opportunity to shove this through.

Wow. That is INCREDIBLY dickish.

And doesn't even sound legal.

[Sheb]

Tell the French about it. A few years ago, the socialist defeated some rather bad piece of legislation by hiding lawmakers in a closet near the session hall and storming in at the last moment, using the fact that most lawmakers don't usually bother to show up for votes.