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Author Topic: American Politics Omnibus Megathread of DOOM  (Read 71708 times)

Frumple

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Re: American Politics Omnibus Megathread of DOOM
« Reply #420 on: January 21, 2013, 01:49:29 pm »

There's also the problem of things like insurance benefits. There's no reason not to extend filing jointly, but you don't want five people marrying someone for the health insurance.
Why... why not? If a group wants to join together legally for financial benefits, I don't necessarily see an issue with that. Plenty of people today still marry (or stay married) largely because of the economic aspect... and as long as the economic and legal parts are so tightly (and exclusively, in areas with asymmetric civil unions) entwined with marriage, I don't see that changing.

I actually know a few people that have married basically strictly because of health benefits -- hell, if it wasn't because of that and a few related things, my mother and current step-father would have never married. He didn't want to remarry out of respect to his previous [deceased] wife, she was cool with it. Outside of the legal aspects, their relationship didn't change a damn bit because of the existence of a piece of toilet paper legally recognizing their relationship. Seen plenty of cases where people stayed married (often despite pursuing relationships outside of the marriage and/or ceasing to cohabit) for the legal or economic benefits, especially when there's children involved.

Well, some rights have to be doled out (child raising, visit right in hospitals, that kind of things.)
Revised guardianship/dependence laws would cover the former, formally and fully implementing living wills would cover the latter. From what I've seen, marriage on the legal side actually complicates things more than a more modular, if you will, set of systems would. Redistributing the legal aspects of marriage is a solvable problem. Not trivially solvable, because the legal aspect is a bit of a mess from what I understand (due largely to square peg-round hole things related to the issues of attaching so many legal riders to a social status), but solvable.
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GlyphGryph

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Re: American Politics Omnibus Megathread of DOOM
« Reply #421 on: January 21, 2013, 02:01:10 pm »

The idea of insurance covering people just because you are married to them or they are a child is also one of the stupidest ideas I've ever heard of.

Can you imagine if they adopted that policy in other areas of life? It would be almost as mad an idea as that is to begin with.
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penguinofhonor

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Re: American Politics Omnibus Megathread of DOOM
« Reply #422 on: January 21, 2013, 02:17:47 pm »

My solution to that conundrum is typically to make one big government-run insurance program that covers everybody so nobody has to worry about how their insurance is shared, but I'm admittedly a bit liberal.
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Criptfeind

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Re: American Politics Omnibus Megathread of DOOM
« Reply #423 on: January 21, 2013, 02:22:43 pm »

The idea of insurance covering people just because you are married to them or they are a child is also one of the stupidest ideas I've ever heard of.

Can you imagine if they adopted that policy in other areas of life? It would be almost as mad an idea as that is to begin with.

I don't understand what the issue with the benefits from a job covering your family and especially children.

I mean. Yeah. As pointed out, it's fairly abusable. But stupid? Would you rather have children not covered by their parents policies? Would you rather have tons of kids never getting medical care? Because that seems like what you are calling stupid to me.

As for imagining it applying to other things... Well. Uh. I can't really imagine many types of compensation that don't apply to children. For a majority of people the two things are health care and money. Is it mad for parents to spend money on kids?

So yeah. I don't understand what you just said at all GG. I mean, there is a argument to be made that the whole idea of health insurance itself is ridiculous. But if you are thinking like that you should be calling the whole system stupid, not just a part of it.
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mainiac

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Re: American Politics Omnibus Megathread of DOOM
« Reply #424 on: January 21, 2013, 02:37:51 pm »

I'd rather have people be insured because they are human then have them be insured because they are next of kin to someone with insurance.  And we're getting close to that being the case everywhere in the developed world.
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GlyphGryph

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Re: American Politics Omnibus Megathread of DOOM
« Reply #425 on: January 21, 2013, 02:59:37 pm »

I think this part is incredibly, immensely stupid. If we agree that insurance should be payed for, and you want to add more people to your insurance, the general approach should be paying for me people - not subsidizing your in-group by externalizing the costs onto others who aren't as favored by the government/insurance companies because they spit out a ton of kids. Frankly, the whole family situation is frankly appallingly immoral as it's handled, where you can cover as many people as you want for one price, as it introduces a whole host of perverse incentives into the process - causing issues like exactly what we've described here, where we can't pool insurance for economic reasons because it only covers "families" because only "families" (and I use quotes here, because it doesn't matter whether or not you are ACTUALLY a family, only whether you meet the governments and/or insurance agencies definition of one) actually matter.

Optimally, insurance would be done away with completely and we'd have nationalized healthcare. (Nationalized insurance is almost as stupid a concept as our current insurance setup) But if we're going to have people pay for insurance, we shouldn't be letting people on it for free simply by accident of birth while others who are less fortunate have to bear the weight.
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GreatJustice

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Re: American Politics Omnibus Megathread of DOOM
« Reply #426 on: January 21, 2013, 05:53:51 pm »

It's a wonder how Americans can look at their system, in which insurance has been basically transformed from traditional "insurance" into a messy ol' third party payment system that puts a wall between the consumer and the costs of their healthcare, and say "You know what we need to do? Take our garbage third party payment systems and make them mandatory for everyone! Yeah, that will definitely solve our problems!".
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misko27

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Re: American Politics Omnibus Megathread of DOOM
« Reply #427 on: January 21, 2013, 05:55:25 pm »

I think it's amazing how everyone agrees America is broken, but disagree on every other possible detail.
 
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penguinofhonor

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Re: American Politics Omnibus Megathread of DOOM
« Reply #428 on: January 21, 2013, 06:05:02 pm »

It's a wonder how Americans can look at their system, in which insurance has been basically transformed from traditional "insurance" into a messy ol' third party payment system that puts a wall between the consumer and the costs of their healthcare, and say "You know what we need to do? Take our garbage third party payment systems and make them mandatory for everyone! Yeah, that will definitely solve our problems!".

With one option comes reliability. There's no "Man, I hope my insurance covers this."

There are other problems that I'm sure you're aware and very critical of, but this isn't one of them.
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Nadaka

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Re: American Politics Omnibus Megathread of DOOM
« Reply #429 on: January 21, 2013, 06:11:22 pm »

It's a wonder how Americans can look at their system, in which insurance has been basically transformed from traditional "insurance" into a messy ol' third party payment system that puts a wall between the consumer and the costs of their healthcare, and say "You know what we need to do? Take our garbage third party payment systems and make them mandatory for everyone! Yeah, that will definitely solve our problems!".

Easy. The single payer option is dirty hippy socialism, but forcing people to buy into for profit insurance is a pro business kickback, the only solution acceptable to the GOP, because fuck those dirty hippies I have my investment portfolio to think about.
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FearfulJesuit

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Re: American Politics Omnibus Megathread of DOOM
« Reply #430 on: January 21, 2013, 06:14:27 pm »

Y'have to wonder what'll happen when health care costs just become so exorbitantly high that Obamacare has to be replaced...
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GreatJustice

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Re: American Politics Omnibus Megathread of DOOM
« Reply #431 on: January 21, 2013, 06:30:10 pm »

I think it's amazing how everyone agrees America is broken, but disagree on every other possible detail.
 
What If I said it was perfect as is? Would I get lynched?

If, hypothetically, the only people who ever needed healthcare were the ones who already have insurance, and healthcare costs suddenly stopped rising in the near future, then taking into account the generally high quality of American healthcare and the lack of other downsides (eg. waiting times), then yes, it might be perfect. However, the thing is that the people with insurance who don't have to directly bear the costs indirectly increase the costs for those who do, making the system increasingly unstable. The US healthcare system is sufficiently socialized in important aspects that it's not a great example of "free market healthcare" in action, and it's sufficiently not-socialized that it's not a great example of "socialized healthcare" in action. It's a bit like the Frankenstein's monster of healthcare systems. In the 1940s and 1950s, when it began to become fashionable to nationalize things like healthcare, Americans were swinging decidedly against direct interventionism as a result of WW2 rationing, etc and thus Truman failed to get it passed. Also, the AMA was decidedly against universal healthcare, ironically despite the fact that nearly all of their influence came from laws passed in the early 20th century. So instead regulations, controls, programs, and incentives were latched onto the system's back until it became such a damn mess that no one could recognize it anymore.

Now, because pretty much no one likes the US system as it stands, it gets attacked for a variety of different reasons and the solutions tend to be completely different, though it also gets defended for entirely different reasons too. For example, one argument in favour of the present US system is that it basically pays for the rest of the world's cheap pharmaceuticals; the companies basically sell drugs to other countries at a loss because the US pays extortionate prices for mildly improved drugs, so if the US dropped the system the rest of the world would have to shoulder vastly increased prices. In general, though, defenders of the US system tend towards "it's better in a lot of ways and it's closer to the ideal system than others", whereas attackers have systems that they actually think ARE the ideal.

It's a wonder how Americans can look at their system, in which insurance has been basically transformed from traditional "insurance" into a messy ol' third party payment system that puts a wall between the consumer and the costs of their healthcare, and say "You know what we need to do? Take our garbage third party payment systems and make them mandatory for everyone! Yeah, that will definitely solve our problems!".

With one option comes reliability. There's no "Man, I hope my insurance covers this."

There are other problems that I'm sure you're aware and very critical of, but this isn't one of them.

But it doesn't change the incentives, which are one of the biggest problems. If there's a drug that increases my survival rate for a problem by, say, 0.5%, I'm far more likely to buy it for $5000 if someone else is paying for it instead of me. In turn, this passes off the costs of a few people with expensive drugs onto every other person, regardless of how big the "pool" is. In the present system, that means that people getting lots of payouts from insurance companies (that aren't "insuring" anything), are driving up either rejections or costs in the form of payouts. This problem is the same under the ACA, except the costs are more spread out but more people are roped into the system (eg. people without insurance who aren't using it at all). In a universalized system, this is either changed by restricting access to certain drugs altogether, by adding waiting lists, etc etc but the problem is still there regardless.

The obvious (immediate) solution here would be to try to remove the incentives for third party payment in the first place, but apparently that's not possible for some reason.

Y'have to wonder what'll happen when health care costs just become so exorbitantly high that Obamacare has to be replaced...

"Our damn free market system isn't working! We need to add more half-assed controls that will cut costs and rescue the system!"
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The person supporting regenerating health, when asked why you can see when shot in the eye justified it as 'you put on an eyepatch'. When asked what happens when you are then shot in the other eye, he said that you put an eyepatch on that eye. When asked how you'd be able to see, he said that your first eye would have healed by then.

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Eagle_eye

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Re: American Politics Omnibus Megathread of DOOM
« Reply #432 on: January 21, 2013, 06:49:18 pm »

You know, for once, I actually agree with you. We should stop trying to fix the flaws of capitalism, and just replace it entirely.
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misko27

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Re: American Politics Omnibus Megathread of DOOM
« Reply #433 on: January 21, 2013, 06:52:34 pm »

You DO realize that Obamacare SAVES money, right?
 
Also, in general statements like that from me are not to be taken too seriously.
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GreatJustice

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Re: American Politics Omnibus Megathread of DOOM
« Reply #434 on: January 21, 2013, 07:28:19 pm »

You DO realize that Obamacare SAVES money, right?
 
Also, in general statements like that from me are not to be taken too seriously.

If we were back in the 90s, 70s, or 60s you would be claiming that Medicaid reform/the federal HMO act/Medicare would cut costs too, with nearly as much evidence, and yet they failed to do it for largely the same reasons.

I'm not seeing much "saving" when the insurance companies jack up their rates to compensate for increased coverage while companies lay off workers to avoid paying for their healthcare.

You know, for once, I actually agree with you. We should stop trying to fix the flaws of capitalism, and just replace it entirely.

At the very least I see where you're coming from. I'd say a fully government controlled healthcare system will ultimately fail, but I can see the logic behind it. There is no logic behind "let's take our broken system, shuffle some money around, and drag everyone into it without addressing the problems!", as if the entire problem is dastardly insurance companies hoarding life saving drugs while twirling their mustaches.
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The person supporting regenerating health, when asked why you can see when shot in the eye justified it as 'you put on an eyepatch'. When asked what happens when you are then shot in the other eye, he said that you put an eyepatch on that eye. When asked how you'd be able to see, he said that your first eye would have healed by then.

Professional Bridge Toll Collector?
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