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[GreatWyrmGold]

You may know exactly what it says, but that doesn't mean you can do it perfectly. If you read a cookbook once, then tried to make a souffle, how well would it go?
Now apply that to necromancy

It is power granted dirrectly through forbidden knowledge. It is either perfectly known or not accessed.
This is because it isn't a skill. You now command the dead, there is no skill because this ability is already perfected because it can only be perfect. In otherwords it isn't a cookbook but rather like a membership card to an exclusive club that you either own or you do not own.

No, Necromancy shouldn't be like that. Magic isn't an on/off switch. Maybe some people have the potential to do magic and some never will, but learning how to bend the forces of nature to your will isn't something you pick up overnight. Name a single example of a fantasy world in which magic isn't something you need to take a while to learn how to do right.
Read the tablet last week, never tried it? Maybe you can raise that neat squirrel corpse or whatever, but the ancient necromancer who's memorized every scratch and contour of that valuable slab and raised more bodies than you've had breakfasts is going to do it better.

Not that I object to a Necromancy skill but with the way it is currently hinted as to working I'd think it would be for using necromancy in new ways not expressly given to you by the tablet. For example giving the mindless undead more complex commands. It wouldn't be a check to do necromancy but rather to stretch necromancy.

Um, don't use that craptastic "DF as it is now" excuse. I hate when people do that. DF is in alpha. Its features are in tatters or missing entirely. Necromancy isn't finished. DF2012 wasn't Toady's final word on the subject.

You want to raise a zombie or a lot of zombies all at once? Skill is useless.

Why?

Though that is just one way it could be done. As long as there is a idea that a necromancer isn't entirely a novice. The skill should be about quality and stretching over just performing it.

Why not? You can't start out as a master.

Or rather... A Necromancer will never fail at making a Souflee. If that Necromancer wants to make a blackberry chocolate Souflee, it may require something else.

Um, you aren't going to make a perfect souffle on Day 1, Try 1. It'll take trial-and-error, time, effort, etc. Once you actually learn what the heck you're doing? Sure, you don't even need to look at the slab/cookbook. Until then, good luck...

[Neonivek]

No, Necromancy shouldn't be like that. Magic isn't an on/off switch. Maybe some people have the potential to do magic and some never will, but learning how to bend the forces of nature to your will isn't something you pick up overnight. Name a single example of a fantasy world in which magic isn't something you need to take a while to learn how to do right

It isn't knowledge on how to bake a cake it is knowing where a secret passage is. You either find the secret passage or you never knew where it was in the first place.

Why?

Because nothing prevents you from using it and raising a zombie. You either know how to do it or you don't know how to do it. There is no inbetween state.

Why not? You can't start out as a master

Why not? This isn't incomplete knowledge fumbling in the dark no jutsu. This is Arcane knowledge.

You either know it or you don't. You either can do it perfectly every time or you can never do it even slightly.

Hense why you don't learn necromancy in any capacity watching it.

Um, you aren't going to make a perfect souffle on Day 1, Try 1. It'll take trial-and-error, time, effort, etc. Once you actually learn what the heck you're doing? Sure, you don't even need to look at the slab/cookbook. Until then, good luck

And if you cannot make a perfect Souffle you havn't made a single Souflee and thus you are not a necromancer. You either know it or you don't.

---

I shall call this the: Know or do not know system

Where you are either a complete master or you lack the ability in any capacity.

Which can be obtained in two ways.

[Putnam]

No, Necromancy shouldn't be like that. Magic isn't an on/off switch. Maybe some people have the potential to do magic and some never will, but learning how to bend the forces of nature to your will isn't something you pick up overnight. Name a single example of a fantasy world in which magic isn't something you need to take a while to learn how to do right

It isn't knowledge on how to bake a cake it is knowing where a secret passage is. You either find the secret passage or you never knew where it was in the first place.

Why?

Because nothing prevents you from using it and raising a zombie. You either know how to do it or you don't know how to do it. There is no inbetween state.

Why not? You can't start out as a master

Why not? This isn't incomplete knowledge fumbling in the dark no jutsu. This is Arcane knowledge.

You either know it or you don't. You either can do it perfectly every time or you can never do it even slightly.

Hense why you don't learn necromancy in any capacity watching it.

Um, you aren't going to make a perfect souffle on Day 1, Try 1. It'll take trial-and-error, time, effort, etc. Once you actually learn what the heck you're doing? Sure, you don't even need to look at the slab/cookbook. Until then, good luck

And if you cannot make a perfect Souffle you havn't made a single Souflee and thus you are not a necromancer. You either know it or you don't.

---

I shall call this the: Know or do not know system

Where you are either a complete master or you lack the ability in any capacity.

What if magic skill level affects the quality of the cast spell, instead of its nature?
E.g., a Legendary +5 Necromancer can raise thrall-strength zombies, but if someone was only Dabbling, their zombies would collapse if you bruise their arm.

[Neonivek]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

No, Necromancy shouldn't be like that. Magic isn't an on/off switch. Maybe some people have the potential to do magic and some never will, but learning how to bend the forces of nature to your will isn't something you pick up overnight. Name a single example of a fantasy world in which magic isn't something you need to take a while to learn how to do right

It isn't knowledge on how to bake a cake it is knowing where a secret passage is. You either find the secret passage or you never knew where it was in the first place.

Why?

Because nothing prevents you from using it and raising a zombie. You either know how to do it or you don't know how to do it. There is no inbetween state.

Why not? You can't start out as a master

Why not? This isn't incomplete knowledge fumbling in the dark no jutsu. This is Arcane knowledge.

You either know it or you don't. You either can do it perfectly every time or you can never do it even slightly.

Hense why you don't learn necromancy in any capacity watching it.

Um, you aren't going to make a perfect souffle on Day 1, Try 1. It'll take trial-and-error, time, effort, etc. Once you actually learn what the heck you're doing? Sure, you don't even need to look at the slab/cookbook. Until then, good luck

And if you cannot make a perfect Souffle you havn't made a single Souflee and thus you are not a necromancer. You either know it or you don't.

---

I shall call this the: Know or do not know system

Where you are either a complete master or you lack the ability in any capacity.

What if magic skill level affects the quality of the cast spell, instead of its nature?
E.g., a Legendary +5 Necromancer can raise thrall-strength zombies, but if someone was only Dabbling, their zombies would collapse if you bruise their arm.

No response to no response.

[Scoops Novel]

Magic is not instantly learnt in nearly all cases, and it's more fun when it isn't.

[Escapism]

Agreed. Learning magic should also be ridiculously dangerous for everyone around, but in the end very powerful. The current system is probably just a placeholder to allow necros to assault players forts now and then.

[Neonivek]

Magic is not instantly learnt in nearly all cases, and it's more fun when it isn't.

I could imagine the tablet, being given by a god, is embued with the ability to pass on the knowledge of life and death.

Though yes I agree that reading books on life and death should take longer, but reading doesn't take any time currently.

Agreed. Learning magic should also be ridiculously dangerous for everyone around, but in the end very powerful.

Ahhh, the "Deadly useless magic" system. Where it never gets to the "End very powerful" part because of its "ridiculously dangerous" part.

--

Suffice it to say Necromancy, as it is currently, isn't a spell system. It is a power or ability that is the extension of the will of those who know the secrets of life and death.

While not all magic needs to be like that. To throw it out is sort of throwing out a rather unique aspect.

Keep the "Know or do not know" System and keep the "Power revealed" system. Then add whatever you wish as possibilities.

[Orange Wizard]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

No, Necromancy shouldn't be like that. Magic isn't an on/off switch. Maybe some people have the potential to do magic and some never will, but learning how to bend the forces of nature to your will isn't something you pick up overnight. Name a single example of a fantasy world in which magic isn't something you need to take a while to learn how to do right

It isn't knowledge on how to bake a cake it is knowing where a secret passage is. You either find the secret passage or you never knew where it was in the first place.

Why?

Because nothing prevents you from using it and raising a zombie. You either know how to do it or you don't know how to do it. There is no inbetween state.

Why not? You can't start out as a master

Why not? This isn't incomplete knowledge fumbling in the dark no jutsu. This is Arcane knowledge.

You either know it or you don't. You either can do it perfectly every time or you can never do it even slightly.

Hense why you don't learn necromancy in any capacity watching it.

Um, you aren't going to make a perfect souffle on Day 1, Try 1. It'll take trial-and-error, time, effort, etc. Once you actually learn what the heck you're doing? Sure, you don't even need to look at the slab/cookbook. Until then, good luck

And if you cannot make a perfect Souffle you havn't made a single Souflee and thus you are not a necromancer. You either know it or you don't.

---

I shall call this the: Know or do not know system

Where you are either a complete master or you lack the ability in any capacity.

What if magic skill level affects the quality of the cast spell, instead of its nature?
E.g., a Legendary +5 Necromancer can raise thrall-strength zombies, but if someone was only Dabbling, their zombies would collapse if you bruise their arm.

No response to no response.

People like my idea!? What is this nonsense?

[Neonivek]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

No, Necromancy shouldn't be like that. Magic isn't an on/off switch. Maybe some people have the potential to do magic and some never will, but learning how to bend the forces of nature to your will isn't something you pick up overnight. Name a single example of a fantasy world in which magic isn't something you need to take a while to learn how to do right

It isn't knowledge on how to bake a cake it is knowing where a secret passage is. You either find the secret passage or you never knew where it was in the first place.

Why?

Because nothing prevents you from using it and raising a zombie. You either know how to do it or you don't know how to do it. There is no inbetween state.

Why not? You can't start out as a master

Why not? This isn't incomplete knowledge fumbling in the dark no jutsu. This is Arcane knowledge.

You either know it or you don't. You either can do it perfectly every time or you can never do it even slightly.

Hense why you don't learn necromancy in any capacity watching it.

Um, you aren't going to make a perfect souffle on Day 1, Try 1. It'll take trial-and-error, time, effort, etc. Once you actually learn what the heck you're doing? Sure, you don't even need to look at the slab/cookbook. Until then, good luck

And if you cannot make a perfect Souffle you havn't made a single Souflee and thus you are not a necromancer. You either know it or you don't.

---

I shall call this the: Know or do not know system

Where you are either a complete master or you lack the ability in any capacity.

What if magic skill level affects the quality of the cast spell, instead of its nature?
E.g., a Legendary +5 Necromancer can raise thrall-strength zombies, but if someone was only Dabbling, their zombies would collapse if you bruise their arm.

No response to no response.

People like my idea!? What is this nonsense?

He quoted myself and he quoted you with no response of his own or connecting thoughts. Essentially there was no response. Thus I have no response for what is essentially no response.

Did he like your idea?

[Putnam]

I was trying to suggest that your claims that this is a boolean issue is false, since there are ways to make it, you know, not one.

[Neonivek]

I was trying to suggest that your claims that this is a boolean issue is false, since there are ways to make it, you know, not one.

Which doesn't apply to what I was trying to say. So yeah...

As well you forget. The goal is to remove Zombie HP.

I am just ultimately talking about the possibility of new abilities being learned through arcane knowledge as fully mastered and fully powerful without steps in learning being taken. As well as the justification for such and the like. As something that cannot be learned by a dabbler but only by a perfect master.

[GreatWyrmGold]

No, Necromancy shouldn't be like that. Magic isn't an on/off switch. Maybe some people have the potential to do magic and some never will, but learning how to bend the forces of nature to your will isn't something you pick up overnight. Name a single example of a fantasy world in which magic isn't something you need to take a while to learn how to do right

It isn't knowledge on how to bake a cake it is knowing where a secret passage is. You either find the secret passage or you never knew where it was in the first place.
Well, why would it be like that? Magic's always seemed more of a scalpel than a sledgehammer to me. It's just a scalpel that hurts like a sledgehammer. And will probably hurt any or everyone else if you screw up. Unless it explodes or doesn't work. So...not much like a scalpel, but more like one than a sledgehammer. Or secret passage.

Why?

Because nothing prevents you from using it and raising a zombie. You either know how to do it or you don't know how to do it. There is no inbetween state.

You can say the same thing about knowing how to bake a cake. Or make a chair/mug/axe.

Why not? You can't start out as a master

Why not? This isn't incomplete knowledge fumbling in the dark no jutsu. This is Arcane knowledge.

Exactly, this is KNOWLEDGE. You can know how to do something without knowing how to do something well.

You either know it or you don't. You either can do it perfectly every time or you can never do it even slightly.

Is that true anywhere in real life?

Hense why you don't learn necromancy in any capacity watching it.

Or maybe there's more to necromancy than gestures? Just a thought. There's probably mental exercises inherent to the system.

Um, you aren't going to make a perfect souffle on Day 1, Try 1. It'll take trial-and-error, time, effort, etc. Once you actually learn what the heck you're doing? Sure, you don't even need to look at the slab/cookbook. Until then, good luck

And if you cannot make a perfect Souffle you havn't made a single Souflee and thus you are not a necromancer. You either know it or you don't.

No. That's not how souffles work, it's not how magic should work, it's not how magic has worked in any fantasy literature that I'm aware of.

I shall call this the: Know or do not know system

Where you are either a complete master or you lack the ability in any capacity.

Which can be obtained in two ways.

I call that idea stupid and suited only for media which don't care about making learning magic how learning any art so delicate should be.

Magic is not instantly learnt in nearly all cases, and it's more fun when it isn't.

I could imagine the tablet, being given by a god, is embued with the ability to pass on the knowledge of life and death.

Me too, but that's more due to the magic imbued in the tablet granting power instantly that the knowledge itself. And it should take practice before the powers act like you imagined.

Though yes I agree that reading books on life and death should take longer, but reading doesn't take any time currently.

So the current system isn't be-all-end-all...

Agreed. Learning magic should also be ridiculously dangerous for everyone around, but in the end very powerful.

Ahhh, the "Deadly useless magic" system. Where it never gets to the "End very powerful" part because of its "ridiculously dangerous" part.

More like the "Deadly magic is deadly, so make sure you're careful before you learn control."

Suffice it to say Necromancy, as it is currently, isn't a spell system. It is a power or ability that is the extension of the will of those who know the secrets of life and death.

While not all magic needs to be like that. To throw it out is sort of throwing out a rather unique aspect.

Keep the "Know or do not know" System and keep the "Power revealed" system. Then add whatever you wish as possibilities.

The reason it's that simple is that Toady was working on about two dozen things that release and couldn't make everything perfect yet. Oh, and BTW? That's how PCs' magic in 99% of video games works--you learn a spell, then it's perfect. Not so original...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

No, Necromancy shouldn't be like that. Magic isn't an on/off switch. Maybe some people have the potential to do magic and some never will, but learning how to bend the forces of nature to your will isn't something you pick up overnight. Name a single example of a fantasy world in which magic isn't something you need to take a while to learn how to do right

It isn't knowledge on how to bake a cake it is knowing where a secret passage is. You either find the secret passage or you never knew where it was in the first place.

Why?

Because nothing prevents you from using it and raising a zombie. You either know how to do it or you don't know how to do it. There is no inbetween state.

Why not? You can't start out as a master

Why not? This isn't incomplete knowledge fumbling in the dark no jutsu. This is Arcane knowledge.

You either know it or you don't. You either can do it perfectly every time or you can never do it even slightly.

Hense why you don't learn necromancy in any capacity watching it.

Um, you aren't going to make a perfect souffle on Day 1, Try 1. It'll take trial-and-error, time, effort, etc. Once you actually learn what the heck you're doing? Sure, you don't even need to look at the slab/cookbook. Until then, good luck

And if you cannot make a perfect Souffle you havn't made a single Souflee and thus you are not a necromancer. You either know it or you don't.

---

I shall call this the: Know or do not know system

Where you are either a complete master or you lack the ability in any capacity.

What if magic skill level affects the quality of the cast spell, instead of its nature?
E.g., a Legendary +5 Necromancer can raise thrall-strength zombies, but if someone was only Dabbling, their zombies would collapse if you bruise their arm.

No response to no response.

People like my idea!? What is this nonsense?

He quoted myself and he quoted you with no response of his own or connecting thoughts. Essentially there was no response. Thus I have no response for what is essentially no response.

His self-quote was the answer. Maybe not a clear one, but an answer nonetheless.

I was trying to suggest that your claims that this is a boolean issue is false, since there are ways to make it, you know, not one.

Which doesn't apply to what I was trying to say. So yeah...

Yes, it kinda does. You were saying that we should make magic either a 1 or a 0. Putnam suggested another way to make it not 1/0.

As well you forget. The goal is to remove Zombie HP.

Whose goal??

I am just ultimately talking about the possibility of new abilities being learned through arcane knowledge as fully mastered and fully powerful without steps in learning being taken. As well as the justification for such and the like. As something that cannot be learned by a dabbler but only by a perfect master.

You seem to be talking about something in which you are either completely unable to do it or "a perfect master," not something it takes skill to learn how to do.

((Incidentally, one thing I like about DF is that anyone can try anything if they could reasonably have learned how to do that. Magic shouldn't be 100% limited until some arbitrary point, then you get 110% of it.))

[Putnam]

(I didn't suggest it, I just kinda... quoted someone else's suggestion of it)

[GreatWyrmGold]

(I didn't suggest it, I just kinda... quoted someone else's suggestion of it)

Oh, somehow I thought you quoted yourself.

[Capntastic]

It's pretty clear that tablets are most likely a very sparse placeholder framework for learning magic.

Or, maybe, that in whatever conglomeration of "How Magic Works" methodologies to choose from, "You read it from a tablet" could be perfectly valid in the meta-setting he's trying to create.

DF doesn't need to be similar to D&D or LOTR or Disc World or whatever.