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[Scoops Novel]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HowDoIShotWeb. In other words, you don't know what you're doing, how to, or what you are with rather a lot of magical effects. I'd like to see this implemented further with what we have actually. Take vampires. We should have to acclimatise to the heightened senses, the strength boost (they appear to gain further in fortress mode but not adventurer mode), the feeding; preferably in a way that involves the player using their judgement. In other words, http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WorldOfCardboardSpeech. This could get particularly interesting as a greater variety of vampire comes along, but you get the idea. With unarmed combat i sincerely hope that we'll be given options of how hard we want to hit someone (without a definite idea of the effects), etc. A look at http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RequiredSecondaryPowers sounds fascinating. I realize this is already planned for artifacts, but the combat aspect in particular I'd like to see developed.

[Neonivek]

Magic that is completely unknowable is silly. Why even learn magic?

Heck how would you go around learning it?

[GreatWyrmGold]

Magic that is completely unknowable is silly. Why even learn magic?

Heck how would you go around learning it?

This is how you learn magic. Not by reading a slab (although that's Step 0), but by actually doing magic. Did Harry Potter read his spellbooks and suddenly could cast every spell in them? No, he had to practice first.

[Neonivek]

This isn't about learning about something unknown.

This is about magic being unknowable. Where everytime you cast a spell something completely unknown happens and where the transfer of knowledge and experience does not happen.

This isn't how Harry Pottern learned magic. He went to a school that was formed by several of the most powerful and knowledgable wizards in the world who have studied and experimented in their craft. As well magic even in that setting isn't completely unknowable as it follows clear guidelines and patterns hense why magical science exists in that universe.

While they may or may not know WHY magic acts the way it does, they know how it functions mostly.

As well when Harry Potter did use magic without learning it first it actually did what he was intending to do but not nessisarily what he wanted it to do.

---

There is a setting with purely chaotic unknowable magic. You know what they use it for? They put it in eggs and throw it at people because there is a chance it will do something bad.

[Putnam]

Uh, no. Read the OP again. This is about magic that takes a while to get used to instead of "welp know the secrets of life and death RISE MY MINIONS".

[Neonivek]

Uh, no. Read the OP again. This is about magic that takes a while to get used to instead of "welp know the secrets of life and death RISE MY MINIONS".

Given that a lot of it is in weblinks (and I never open weblinks in a topic) I can see why I wouldn't.

Mind you, if you read the tablet you should know exactly what it means since otherwise you don't have the ability to do what it is on the tablet... or in otherwords "Knowledge is power" if you don't got the knowledge you don't got the power.

[Putnam]

Ignore the weblinks and it's still fairly coherent.

[Neonivek]

Ignore the weblinks and it's still fairly coherent.

Well let me see

"You don't know what you're doing, how to, or what you are with rather a lot of magical effects. I'd like to see this implemented further with what we have actually. Take vampires. We should have to acclimatise to the heightened senses, the strength boost (they appear to gain further in fortress mode but not adventurer mode), the feeding; preferably in a way that involves the player using their judgement. This could get particularly interesting as a greater variety of vampire comes along, but you get the idea. With unarmed combat i sincerely hope that we'll be given options of how hard we want to hit someone (without a definite idea of the effects), etc."

It isn't really.

Though we really should get back on topic

[Starver]

Personally, apart from being temporarily sucked into a TVTropes well of procrastination (for which I will have to keeeeel yooouuuuuuu, OP!), it seemed a decent concept.

But then how read it was that there'd be a "Suck Blood" skill (for someone having become a vampire) or a "Raise Dead" one (for a newly inaugurated necromancer, having just been introduced to the appropriate dark arts), just like there's an "Armor User" or "Ambusher" skill, that would need levelling up to be most efficient, and started at "Dabbling" (give or take some chance difference?) so that the feeding took many more game ticks to accomplish, perhaps was less satisfying, maybe defaulted to "kill target" mode (should there be intended to be a choice in this regard, at higher skill level) or whatever else would be the "unpractised" result.  Maybe more chance of the subject waking up and going hostile, if it isn't someone oneself rendered unconscious in whatever way.... Maybe even in this latter case too!


But that's just replacing a wall of text with a different wall of text.  And may be wrong in my reading of OP's intentions....  (Hmm, I seem to be apologising a lot about this sort of thing, recently.  For which I'm sorry. )

[Telgin]

I'm all for there being skill levels associated with magic abilities.  I'm kind of disappointed that all you have to do is read a slab to suddenly be able to churn out endless loyal minions from corpses, but given how overdue DF 2012 was I don't blame Toady for making that part of it pretty lightweight for now.

Toady would probably need to make some sort of distinction between [can do / can't do] and [depends on skill level] for things, but it gets pretty complicated when you start factoring what might happen when a magic skill roll fails.  A lot would probably need to be hard coded for now, unfortunately.

[Scoops Novel]

Multiple enchantments (which need to be combined carefully) should be in if only for the iron man suit without a manual while being attacked by a Lich potential.

[Orange Wizard]

What if magic skill level affects the quality of the cast spell, instead of its nature?
E.g., a Legendary +5 Necromancer can raise thrall-strength zombies, but if someone was only Dabbling, their zombies would collapse if you bruise their arm.

[Xantalos]

What if magic skill level affects the quality of the cast spell, instead of its nature?
E.g., a Legendary +5 Necromancer can raise thrall-strength zombies, but if someone was only Dabbling, their zombies would collapse if you bruise their arm.

Would wereism be affected too then? A novice were is in werestate for less time than a senior, with the condition eventually becoming permanent?

[GreatWyrmGold]

Uh, no. Read the OP again. This is about magic that takes a while to get used to instead of "welp know the secrets of life and death RISE MY MINIONS".

Given that a lot of it is in weblinks (and I never open weblinks in a topic) I can see why I wouldn't.

A grand total of one of those three links was directly relevant. You didn't miss much.

Mind you, if you read the tablet you should know exactly what it means since otherwise you don't have the ability to do what it is on the tablet... or in otherwords "Knowledge is power" if you don't got the knowledge you don't got the power.

You may know exactly what it says, but that doesn't mean you can do it perfectly. If you read a cookbook once, then tried to make a souffle, how well would it go?
Now apply that to necromancy.

What if magic skill level affects the quality of the cast spell, instead of its nature?
E.g., a Legendary +5 Necromancer can raise thrall-strength zombies, but if someone was only Dabbling, their zombies would collapse if you bruise their arm.

Would wereism be affected too then? A novice were is in werestate for less time than a senior, with the condition eventually becoming permanent?

I'd rather have wereskill give you more control over your abilities. A dabbler would transform at the full moon and in extreme stress every time and completely losing control when s/he does so; a master could pretty much select what form to be in at any time, and would be in full control of the form.

[Neonivek]

You may know exactly what it says, but that doesn't mean you can do it perfectly. If you read a cookbook once, then tried to make a souffle, how well would it go?
Now apply that to necromancy

It is power granted dirrectly through forbidden knowledge. It is either perfectly known or not accessed.

This is because it isn't a skill. You now command the dead, there is no skill because this ability is already perfected because it can only be perfect. In otherwords it isn't a cookbook but rather like a membership card to an exclusive club that you either own or you do not own.

Not that I object to a Necromancy skill but with the way it is currently hinted as to working I'd think it would be for using necromancy in new ways not expressly given to you by the tablet. For example giving the mindless undead more complex commands. It wouldn't be a check to do necromancy but rather to stretch necromancy.

You want to raise a zombie or a lot of zombies all at once? Skill is useless. You want to give a herd of zombies each individual commands to do individual attacks at different sections of a single creature? That could be a use for the necromancy skill.

Though that is just one way it could be done. As long as there is a idea that a necromancer isn't entirely a novice. The skill should be about quality and stretching over just performing it.

Or rather... A Necromancer will never fail at making a Souflee. If that Necromancer wants to make a blackberry chocolate Souflee, it may require something else.