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Author Topic: Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead - A roaming horde appears on the horizon!  (Read 1881452 times)

Darkmere

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I think this argument has been hashed out enough times in the DF forums proper, yes?
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And then, they will be weaponized. Like everything in this game, from kittens to babies, everything is a potential device of murder.
So if baseless speculation is all we have, we might as well treat it like fact.

Akhier the Dragon hearted

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   I think this argument has been done for every single roguelike that makes the step into tiles after they already have a player base.
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Join us. The crazy is at a perfect temperature today.
So it seems I accidentally put my canteen in my wheelbarrow and didn't notice... and then I got really thirsty... so right before going to sleep I go to take a swig from my canteen and... end up snorting a line of low-grade meth.

Kaitol

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Re: Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead - What's that I see on the horizon? Could it be...
« Reply #5762 on: September 01, 2013, 12:06:29 am »

How generic reused symbols equates to more easily discernible than unique images baffles my inner sense of logic.

.... maybe it has to do with how people look at the screen. Focusing on the entire screen at once as opposed to focusing on specific elements of the screen one at a time...

This has to be a brain thing. Somebody should do a study. Maybe somebody did.... TO GOOGLE.
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Akhier the Dragon hearted

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Re: Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead - What's that I see on the horizon? Could it be...
« Reply #5763 on: September 01, 2013, 12:07:23 am »

   The things is that with ASCII versus Tiles is that some people are incapable of getting ASCII. You can understand graphics but prefer ASCII so what about people who want to play but the reverse is not true? Also for those who say that some who don't get ASCII are just not trying hard enough. I am 100% sure that some people are literally unable to understand it. The ability to see something like a d and not only get that its a dog but if its red then its a fire drake is just not something some people can do. Its a layer of abstraction that some are not able to follow and I rank it up there with things like programming where you just have to be able to get it or you won't.
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Join us. The crazy is at a perfect temperature today.
So it seems I accidentally put my canteen in my wheelbarrow and didn't notice... and then I got really thirsty... so right before going to sleep I go to take a swig from my canteen and... end up snorting a line of low-grade meth.

Tiruin

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Re: Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead - What's that I see on the horizon? Could it be...
« Reply #5764 on: September 01, 2013, 12:12:41 am »

How generic reused symbols equates to more easily discernible than unique images baffles my inner sense of logic.

.... maybe it has to do with how people look at the screen. Focusing on the entire screen at once as opposed to focusing on specific elements of the screen one at a time...

This has to be a brain thing. Somebody should do a study. Maybe somebody did.... TO GOOGLE.
It is a brain thing. ASCII is associating what we discern and know in the real world to symbols in the virtual world. @ = your character. d = dog. Colors also put their mark here. It's the way of using the mind's associative skills to render a whole new reality.

Tiles or not, they're graphics that people do. I pretty much like both sides but discussing the matter entirely would be poking with a blunt stick. :P

Anyway, I found this tiny bit while messing around (testing) on Wizard Mode.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: September 01, 2013, 12:18:11 am by Tiruin »
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Darkmere

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Re: Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead - What's that I see on the horizon? Could it be...
« Reply #5765 on: September 01, 2013, 12:16:09 am »

If you're new, brand new, to games like this, it's just another layer of impenetrability that you have to get over before you "start having fun." I wouldn't have stayed with DF if there hadn't been tilesets to make it readable at a glance so I could focus on learning how to play the game instead of how to visually parse E, e, gray E, and whatever else.

Cataclysm was easier to parse for me, so I'll probably stick with ASCII. When I got back to DF, I probably won't bother with tilesets. I don't begrudge others for taking the same path I did, or playing a single player game as they see fit (though I will silently grind my teeth at people who just cheat their way through everything instead of trying to learn it).
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And then, they will be weaponized. Like everything in this game, from kittens to babies, everything is a potential device of murder.
So if baseless speculation is all we have, we might as well treat it like fact.

DeKaFu

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Re: Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead - What's that I see on the horizon? Could it be...
« Reply #5766 on: September 01, 2013, 12:24:01 am »

I don't dislike tiles, but I dislike completely changing the visual style of games I've already spent a lot of time with (see: my earlier freakout about the font change). So I'll probably stick with ASCII.

However, I have a friend who I've half-convinced to try the game but refuses to touch it until it "has actual graphics", so there's obviously an audience to be tapped there. :P
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Kaitol

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Re: Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead - What's that I see on the horizon? Could it be...
« Reply #5767 on: September 01, 2013, 12:24:46 am »

Personally the only game where I ever enjoyed ascii was Caves of Qud. No clue why. I can tolerate Cataclysm ascii. Barely. I was heartbroken when the tilesets broke.
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Akhier the Dragon hearted

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Re: Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead - What's that I see on the horizon? Could it be...
« Reply #5768 on: September 01, 2013, 12:27:12 am »

   I like it either way though tend to stick with ASCII because with how my monitor is setup it is easier to discern for me. In the end though I will probably go with whatever my audience likes in this case. Once my dang drive finishes defragging that is.
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Join us. The crazy is at a perfect temperature today.
So it seems I accidentally put my canteen in my wheelbarrow and didn't notice... and then I got really thirsty... so right before going to sleep I go to take a swig from my canteen and... end up snorting a line of low-grade meth.

Unknown11010

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Re: Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead - What's that I see on the horizon? Could it be...
« Reply #5769 on: September 01, 2013, 12:36:40 am »

Hi guys! I have played Cataclysm when it was still version .6 when I discovered it here. I was happy to hear about the new version that released recently, but I encountered some problems that made it, for me, worst than .6 so I decided to stick with the older version. I don't keep up too much with game other than the occasional website update that I found and was happy to discover that the game would be able to support tilesets soon. I was just reading the last few posts and was surprised to see a lot of people discussing the validity of adding tileset support.

For me, ASCII is fine. I've started DF with ASCII while I was still learning the game and it was a bit hard to get used to. Eventually, I found out about tilesets and have hardly gone back. It just makes it easier for me to recognize images over symbols.


Cataclysm is fun and playable (thankfully) with ASCII, but I think tileset support will really help some people like me who has a hard time noticing symbols. Images of a zombie are more useful to me than a Z when I'm scavenging. Sometimes I get in trouble because I notice the zombie too late. Also, as mentioned, tileset support can help people get into the game.

Other than that, I was wondering what other features might be going into the next update. Like I said, I don't keep up too much with the game other than the occasional updates on the main site and it seems the latest discussion is about the tilesets.
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Akhier the Dragon hearted

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Re: Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead - What's that I see on the horizon? Could it be...
« Reply #5770 on: September 01, 2013, 12:42:00 am »

   There was a Kickstarter that succeeded so thats outlining what work is being done sorta. What it was for wasn't something like finishing the game or similiar silly stuff but to basically hire a programmer for a couple months to work on it full time. Currently he is working on bug fixing the tiles release and I think next is getting some worldgen stuff nailed down but after that I think it is Z levels.
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Join us. The crazy is at a perfect temperature today.
So it seems I accidentally put my canteen in my wheelbarrow and didn't notice... and then I got really thirsty... so right before going to sleep I go to take a swig from my canteen and... end up snorting a line of low-grade meth.

Moogie

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Re: Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead - What's that I see on the horizon? Could it be...
« Reply #5771 on: September 01, 2013, 12:57:14 am »

ASCII hurts my eyes. I suffer from eyestrain-induced migraines; tilesets help me play roguelike games without putting myself into a 24-hour-long state of misery, pain and suffering.

I fully endorse tileset support and eagerly await the day when I can play Cata without feeling mildly terrified that at any moment I might notice a growing scintillating scotoma in my vision.
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Flying Dice

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Re: Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead - What's that I see on the horizon? Could it be...
« Reply #5772 on: September 01, 2013, 12:58:48 am »

Meh. I prefer ASCII, but there's no reason to avoid supporting tilesets as well.
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GalenEvil

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Re: Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead - What's that I see on the horizon? Could it be...
« Reply #5773 on: September 01, 2013, 01:07:26 am »

Tileset support is pretty much finished as far as I am concerned. A few bugs may crop up here and there as tilesets become more fleshed out, and I think a forward-compatibility feature needs to be added to allow generic tiles for new undefined items. The next step is the World Factory and Mod Management system, which will allow DF-similar creation and separation of worlds as well as an easy mod application interface so the user has to muck about with the actual files as little as possible. The final things on the list are Z-Level support beyond the current 2D unconnected slices, and the stretch goal we reached for alternative starting scenarios. The World Factory is almost to playable, and probably would be playable today if I hadn't gotten distracted trying to fix the overmap generation code. Will probably put the overmap generation stuff on hold until Monday so I can spend Sunday getting the World Factory prototype finished up and ready for option inclusion and activation.

Also, the tileset toggle has been added to the current SDL Experimental! You can switch between Tiles and SDL Rendered font by going into the Options>Interface menu and switching "Use Tiles" to true (use the tileset) or false (use SDL Rendered font).
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stuntaneous

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Re: Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead - What's that I see on the horizon? Could it be...
« Reply #5774 on: September 01, 2013, 03:20:14 am »

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We've found the neckbeard :D

Hey, it comes and goes. :P Right this moment I've been without it for a day. Naturally, I'm at least rocking a beard and blended, dense sidies of awesome.

Personally the only game where I ever enjoyed ascii was Caves of Qud. No clue why. I can tolerate Cataclysm ascii. Barely. I was heartbroken when the tilesets broke.

I found Caves of Qud has the best ASCII aesthetic of all the roguelikes I've played. It's used the space so well, I'm impressed whenever I play it. It's also a great game and one of my absolute favourites in the genre. I was pleasantly surprised to find Cataclysm, too, had a well designed ASCII interface. Especially given its collaborative development. Its visuals aren't Caves of Qud quality but they're right up there. Likewise, these two have thoughtfully designed interfaces. They feel intuitive and efficient.

As for ASCII on the whole, when it's done at least half well it presents a much more unified, consistent look. The symbolic nature may be a bit rough at first but in no time at all you understand it and you interpret it on the fly without effort. Anyone can do this, I disagree that some are incapable. People aren't that thick; some may find it easier but that's as far as I'll go. Headaches, etc, are a legitimate excuse of course. But anyway! It's the symbolic nature that makes an ASCII representation more visually cohesive and aesthetically pleasing. The relatively minimal look of the characters makes it straight forward for them to meld together to form a scene. On the other hand, the added complexity of graphical tiles makes it more difficult for them to do the same, arguably impossible to do so. In this instance, they're the graphical equivalent of trying to put a square peg in a round hole. The information contained in a location on the map awkwardly and abruptly changes inconsistently as it hits a sharply defined, arbitrary border. Apart from its good looks, ASCII's much mentioned imaginary component does, too, add to its appeal. The stark interrupt of graphical tile transitions suspends any significant recreation in the mind. Your imagination and subsequent immersion are on a leash as your array of coloured blocks clunk across the screen. The borderless, centred symbols of ASCII tiles allow the imagination to fill in the separating voids and provide a smooth conceptual transition. There's also the issue of perspective. Generally, tilesets forego the vaguely passable top-down in favour of the 'my three year-old drew this for you' fleshy, hieroglyphic stick-man-of-a-player-sprite. Man, throw me in a pit of shockers (once we get z-levels yeahh!)

Most important of all to consider, however, is the impact the introduction of tilesets can or will have on the direction of the game. It may be subtle, gradual, and not be noticeable for a long time but altering a fundamental element of the game like this affects the audience who plays it and in turn, what becomes of the game. I'm a firm believer in this and seemingly going it alone with the sentiment. I'm aware it's an elitist stance and possibly all sorts of other bad words but it matters. For greats of the genre such as Dwarf Fortress and Cataclysm, I see their development lifespans trailing off years into the future. There's room for these treasured favourites to take a turn for the worst or at least, not reach their true potential. I may sound like someone signalling the implausible coming of the Rapture but I tell ya, it may very well be a possibility, or more than that. A mention! I despise the 'lazy newb pack' for DF because, as the name blatantly suggests, it hauls in the otherwise unlikely players I'm alluding to, I say, shaky evangelist hands and all. Good for them, those who are now loving the goblin-torturing guts out of the game but man, their impact will be felt more and more as time marches on. I admit, I do take comfort knowing Toady's nature though. If anyone can steer clear of the whims and wants of a lower-brow crowd, it's him and his never diverging dedication and professional distance.

These things said, I do respect the effort of those who make the tilesets, Deon being a particularly prolific author of them, and the guys coding Cataclysm for our enjoyment. I just have a few.. concerns! ;) And, I know this latest rant of mine on the topic won't change a thing but I do find myself compelled to get it out every now and then.

HH.H,.HHH..H..,.,,...,.@

If you still aren't seeing even a dark shade of a pixelated comma of sense in my comments, I suggest you fire up DF again, with a vibrant colour-set swapped in, and check out a forested, grassy, green hillside in all its flowing, glowing glory. That's aesthetic and the genre's benchmark. For added tear-jerking awe, if you're short sighted like me, take off those goggles and zone out to the blurry mess of beauty. You'll never see a thing like it with your tilesets.



(I'm tapped out and as I tend to do, I probably won't be too useful following up anyone responding to my rant, sorry. :P Continue mingling amongst yourselves!)
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