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[azmodean]

In that case I think we'd need skill books up to high levels for everything.

Tailoring books only go up to like 3, but there's crafting up to like 8.  During normal rust-enabled play, you'd never be able to craft these things, you'd have to very purposefully metagame it and spend a few days crafting tank tops to get your skill high enough for chitinous armor.

With a vastly expanded range like that I think we'd want to have a quality modifier in there as well, so you'd be able to make a lot of stuff at a fairly low level, but it'd take a lot more time to make really good versions of things, perhaps with lower weight and encumberance and higher effectiveness (be that armor or warmth or environmental protection.)  Actually crafting would have it relatively easy, as it's inherently time-intensive.
Like I said, I'm skeptical of people signing off on the 10,000 hour plan o anything similar, since it mandates literally hours and hours of grinding, since that's how it works in real life... Even though you can work around it to a great deal by having a "practice for x hours" command.
... guns... 10,000 hours of firing practice... just how many rounds would that be? 0_0

And yes, I think the way forward with rust GlyphGryph outlined is the right way to proceed, but in addition to that I think overal skill leveling speed will need to come down a bit.
Also I think rust will have exponential backoff balanced against a rate determined by skill level, so 1 lvl of rust might happen as soon as overnight at high levels, but the 2nd level would take a week, etc...

[GlyphGryph]

I really, really do want to introduce a "practice" command that basically just lets you turn time and resources into skill-gain without have to do any boring repetitive tasks on the part of the player. So "grinding" would just be pressing a button, seeing your skills go up, and then it's back to roaming about scavenging and working on keeping your morale up and meeting your characters needs.

[Knight of Fools]

My biggest problem with the skill rust system is how quickly it starts to rust at higher levels. I've seen skills start rusting the same day I advance them. Is that going to be addressed as well?

[Mephansteras]

My biggest problem with the skill rust system is how quickly it starts to rust at higher levels. I've seen skills start rusting the same day I advance them. Is that going to be addressed as well?

That bugs me too.

I haven't built a computer from scratch in years, but if I were to do so this weekend I wouldn't be stuck looking down at everything and going 'hurr...which one is the power supply?'. I might have to look up some stuff, and it might take me a little longer than it used to, but most real world learning doesn't go away very quickly. In Cataclysm I feel like my character's got some sort of long-term memory loss disease with how quickly skills vanish under skill rust. You didn't cook anything for a week? Well, guess you aren't capable of doing anything more than roasting meat over a fire now!

That's a bit of an exaggeration, of course, but it still feels awfully punishing and unrealistic.

[forsaken1111]

These concerns are why I play without skill rust. Its a silly and broken mechanic right now.

[Akhier the Dragon hearted]

   I do my LP with rust off. I tried using the middle step of rust but to train important skills like first aid with any level of the current rust mechanic is basically impossible without a book. There just are not enough bandages and first aid kits to train it. If I even wanted to try any fancy crafting I basically had to put the points in at character creation to get the skill level and use it right away or get lucky with books.

[SalmonGod]

   I do my LP with rust off. I tried using the middle step of rust but to train important skills like first aid with any level of the current rust mechanic is basically impossible without a book. There just are not enough bandages and first aid kits to train it. If I even wanted to try any fancy crafting I basically had to put the points in at character creation to get the skill level and use it right away or get lucky with books.

Raiding a science lab tends to get me somewhere around 60-70 bandages...

[Darkmere]

Raiding a science lab tends to get me somewhere around 60-70 bandages...

How far would that actually get your FA skill, though? I want to say after reading the FA book to 3, 10 bandages would get me 3-4% total, and it'll rust a bit before you have time to clear out another lab.

[Flare]

   I do my LP with rust off. I tried using the middle step of rust but to train important skills like first aid with any level of the current rust mechanic is basically impossible without a book. There just are not enough bandages and first aid kits to train it. If I even wanted to try any fancy crafting I basically had to put the points in at character creation to get the skill level and use it right away or get lucky with books.

Raiding a science lab tends to get me somewhere around 60-70 bandages...

Your best bet is to use some night vision googles or clever use of a flash light. Despite being in the dark, everything in the science lab can't see, I think.

[Greiger]

Turrets can see just fine last I checked.  Even in the dark if you get within 2 tiles of them, or within a tile of a computer.  Both the turret and computer generate enough light to get you filled you full of holes if you approach.

[WealthyRadish]

The easiest way to train first aid is by cooking mutagen, in my experience. Medical textbooks in hospitals and doctor's offices would be nice, as the idea of just repeatedly doing the same unnecessary task over and over for incremental experience gains is just bad design. Cooking mutagen is at least relatively quick at first, but if you want it past 5 it becomes a dreadful slog, like electronics or mechanics without books (or really most crafting skills).

[Sheb]

But while we loose skill fast with skill rust, we also gain skill real fast. Frankly, can you imagine someone starting with no electronic experience at all and figuring out how to craft geiger counter or bionics module a few days later?

[Darkmere]

But while we loose skill fast with skill rust, we also gain skill real fast. Frankly, can you imagine someone starting with no electronic experience at all and figuring out how to craft geiger counter or bionics module a few days later?

This knowledge also comes form taking apart soldering irons and radios. So yes. Geiger counters and bionic implants are just like soldering irons.

I think I'd like it more if there were schematics you had to get AND skill level required for high-level stuff. CBMs could come from labs, geiger counters from LMOE or FEMA camps, or something like that.

[Knirisk]

But while we loose skill fast with skill rust, we also gain skill real fast. Frankly, can you imagine someone starting with no electronic experience at all and figuring out how to craft geiger counter or bionics module a few days later?

This knowledge also comes form taking apart soldering irons and radios. So yes. Geiger counters and bionic implants are just like soldering irons.

I think I'd like it more if there were schematics you had to get AND skill level required for high-level stuff. CBMs could come from labs, geiger counters from LMOE or FEMA camps, or something like that.

I think recipes from books is already implemented. Still, it would be very appropriate if some construction or programming manuals were necessary to have on hand (and not just read) just to access some certain complicated recipes like CBMs. Or a chemistry book for mutagen.

Spoiler: Although... (click to show/hide)

IIRC, the in-game lore says that mutagen is sort of like a byproduct of the zombie virus or something along those lines, so it isn't totally unviable that mutagen could be made with bleach or ammonia, since most of its compounds already come from the virus itself, right? I'm almost positive I'm inaccurate with this, but it makes sense.

[Sheb]

We need to add a lot of books with a single recipes each and name them "schematics" or something.