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[Ivefan]

That helps a lot.
A suggestion would be to add this description to the combat help menu, I assume that would be a fast edit.
Now I just wonder how the game decides what gun is accurate enough for skill gain.
Most common handgun & submachine gun ammo seem to have a rather high dispersion so even if i get rid of the dispersion on the gun it still leave me with a high base dispersion.
Does aiming with 'p' help training?

[n9103]

Aim dispersion is how accurately you can point the barrel using your hands.
Gun/Ammo dispersion is how straight the actual bullet is going to fly.

What's the point of a Dex and skill checks, if they're lumped together into this Aim Dispersion?
Skill and ability to aim are the same thing, and paired with your actual handling (Dex) represent the human side of the equation. Breaking it down into sub-checks is being excessively specific, and would be better directed at a different aspect of combat, like having no, basic, or thorough familiarity with the weapon model.

Warning: Wall of text below

Spoiler: As for numbers, (click to show/hide)

As for numbers, well, I can give you a decent enough ranking on time to aim and best possible aim.
Top speed will be pistol, yes, but it will also be the lowest level of accuracy as well.
Next for speed (maaaybe 2x pistol?) would be red dot, followed closely by holographic (maybe 1/2 pistol? much less than previous step), and eventually by iron sights (2x red dot wouldn't be too bad for someone skilled).

Bringing up the rear is of course the scope. Hard to say how fast, since different zoom levels require different amounts of time, and a scope with a high minimum magnification takes a different approach to get an initial target. Super rough generalization? 1 1/2-3x iron sights. Up to triple that if the shooter has no experience with scopes however.

As for minimum level of inaccuracy, these are going to be a bit fuzzy, since the difference between the point of impact and the natural point of aim will matter more than actual aim when it comes to an unfamiliar weapon. (This is what calibration and zeroing are for)
Almost as problematic as (or maybe more than) calibration is level of familiarization, with the specific weapon, the weapon style (carbine, bolt-action rifle, full or sub-compact pistols, etc.), and just basic weapon handling. Trying to be more precise in aiming is going to be exponentially worse for a new shooter than it would be for an experienced one. (level of inaccuracy sharply decreases with basic levels in the mentioned variables.)


Lowest MoA will be scope of course. It probably has very low double-digit arc seconds of dispersion for a well calibrated and familiar weapon under ideal conditions (wind would have more of an effect than any error of the shooter's aim). An average shooter in average conditions could probably manage to keep it under 2 MoA with some practice though.

Next, I would say holographic sight in a scavenging situation, as it's already calibrated to the barrel, and the holographic nature helps correct poor sighting by the shooter. Average for this would probably be in the low double digit MoA dispersion. (35ish?) Ideal conditions would probably be half that level. However! Maximum aim bonus from time would be sharply decreased after a couple seconds (same for red dot and pistol) because these sights are designed for speed, not accuracy.

Next is Iron Sights. They would rank higher than holographic if the person was already familiar with the weapon, but lower for someone's first few times firing, as it's dependent on the shooter much more than the holographic ones. (harder to know you have a proper sight alignment for the weapon.) I would say you could get this into the high single-digit MoA range for best conditions. Average conditions would probably be 25ish.

With Red dot sights, there's basically no sight picture correction, so you don't really have feedback as to what angle the sights were calibrated to. The dot also somewhat obscures small targets, leading to greater inaccuracy at distance. Average inaccuracy is probably around 50-60 MoA. (Ideal maybe 40)

And finally pistol sights. There's a reason they're only used in short distance shooting. Minimum inaccuracy for even the best shooters will be (slightly) above 1 degree. Average shooters would probably be in the mid single-digit degrees. Fully unfamiliar or improper training (gangsta style ) will be over 10 degrees at minimum.


I can go even further into this particular aspect, but I'm trying (and failing I'm sure) to keep it within the scope of the discussion.

[Ivefan]

What's the point of a Dex and skill checks, if they're lumped together into this Aim Dispersion?
Skill and ability to aim are the same thing, and paired with your actual handling (Dex) represent the human side of the equation. Breaking it down into sub-checks is being excessively specific, and would be better directed at a different aspect of combat, like having no, basic, or thorough familiarity with the weapon model.

I would assume that Dex was the natural affinity while skill level is experience.

In other news, I lucked out and found two labs with nuke stashes just next to each other(maybe less lucky considering how many labs before that i checked) which gave me 80 mini nukes which equals another 60k bio-power. Yay.

[n9103]

I would assume that Dex was the natural affinity while skill level is experience.

That's basically exactly what I just said, and doesn't actually address any of my points about having yet another accuracy check.

[azmodean]

What's the point of a Dex and skill checks, if they're lumped together into this Aim Dispersion?
Skill and ability to aim are the same thing, and paired with your actual handling (Dex) represent the human side of the equation. Breaking it down into sub-checks is being excessively specific, and would be better directed at a different aspect of combat, like having no, basic, or thorough familiarity with the weapon model.

I may not have made it clear, but Dex only impacts your total accuracy once.  Dex below a threshold (14 I think, don't recall offhand) gives one of the sources of gun dispersion, reflecting your ability to hold the gun steady.  The assumption is that if you have 15+ dex, you're holding the gun steady to within 1MoA as long as your aim has steadied, so it is not contributing to dispersion at all.  We might revisit this if we ever add gun stances, because there's a huge difference between holding a gun steady to 1 MoA while standing and doing so while prone.

Dex also contributes to aim *speed*, which is how long it takes you to get to your best aim level.  It does not influence the aim dispersion value, which is solely determined by the best sight on the gun.  We should move perception over to contributing to sight dispersion *instead* of gun dispersion, just haven't gotten around to it yet.

Familiarity with a specific weapon type keeps coming up, but we haven't settled on what the effects should be and how it should be implemented.

I can go even further into this particular aspect, but I'm trying (and failing I'm sure) to keep it within the scope of the discussion.

Nope, that's pretty much exactly what I was asking, thanks

[Skyrunner]

So... z-levels yet? I've last played over a year ago, I have no idea.

[Ivefan]

Not really it seems. Theres a z-level mod around i think.

[BigD145]

Z-levels are still experimental. There is a built in mod for it.

[teoleo]

i can't empy a bottle in the ground or spill on the ground the gasoline....

[Angle]

Try 'U'nloading it.

[Descan]

Just to be clear, are you going into your inventory with (i), selecting the item with it's keybinding, then pressing (U) to unload it, and then pressing either an arrow or numpad direction to empty it on the ground?

What's the problem preventing you from doing so, a programming error or a user error?

[teoleo]

i have press the Arrow but don't see any action....now i reload the game....

and now the game start with all the type of zombie in the first day???

[Micro102]

- Press i
- Press the letter of the bottle you want empty
- Press U
- Press a direction key

[i2amroy]

and now the game start with all the type of zombie in the first day???

Yeah, it's part of a move to remove the totally unrealistic dynamic spawning completely over time and replace it with the static spawn system that actually sensibly tracks zombies. It means you have to play the game a bit more carefully at the beginning, take it slow, but you don't need to worry about things like zombies spawning in the middle of your house anymore.

[teoleo]

so, if i start with dynamic spawn i don't have anymore a dynamic spawn...