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[tryrar]

...I meant we fake up a supply train for them to raid, not send THEM a fake supply train

[kaian-a-coel]

...I meant we fake up a supply train for them to raid, not send THEM a fake supply train

that actually sounds like the start of a good idea. Master Tactician Gervassen? Your take on that?

[Gervassen]

Glad you asked, Kaian. 

Needs a bit more flesh on its bones to judge it fairly, I would say. If it works the way that I see it, then I see some potential and also some problems.

Preliminarily, I would agree that food lures them on very effectively right now, because they are very hungry. However, I have reservations whether a small supply train could draw off a large enough enemy force. Raids don't need to be thousands of men. Whatever ruse is used, it has to be enough of a challenge that they march most of their army in pursuit. When they reach our trap, they must see a reason to set their line of battle for a massed charge and run headlong into the pits. If they see no real threat atop the hill, fifty enemies might impulsively rush forward too early and spring the trap right in front of the other thousands.

That would be a real shame after several days of digging. Average dig speed is 1m³ every 1-2 hours. Three thousand men doing a daily shift of 4 hours can maximally dig 24,000m³ of trench in two days. If the cross-section is 3m wide by 3m deep, that's a length of 2.67km total. Since our three thousand men deployed 4 ranks deep would cover 1.125km that's about enough work to encircle them entirely. Then fifty raiders run ahead of the others and fall in, exposing the existence of all this hidden trench. Imagine our chagrin! 

Optimally, we want to present enough of a threat that they approach us en masse and don't dare charge until they can do so in concert. Then again, all is not lost if our trench is discovered before the whole host is committed to a charge. They'll still have to cross it under fire. That won't be easy, and we can throw them back into it wherever they gain a foothold on our side. Still, total shock and surprise during a massed charge would be the best scenario, as happened at Lugdunum.

Perhaps the issues above can be addressed by tweaking the supply train ruse; but even if not, I agree that overturning a supply cart every so often and leaving a few spilt bags of grain nearby while doing a fake retreat ruse would be a tantalising addition to our lure. A trail of bread crumbs, as it were.

[tryrar]

I was thinking along the lines of getting about 30 or so carts(or however many it would take to lure out a sizable portion of the enemy), set them up as if they were coming from the stalemated Lords to supply an army on the enemy's flank(which would be something they WON'T want), and try to insure that any scouts they have spots the train. Naturally, the carts would be covered, but we'll have OUR scouts(mainly our Rangers, but any good scout with woods training will do) shadow them, and at a signal, there would be an "accidental" spill of some grain from the lead cart(naturally, the rest of the carts would be empty, except for some straw to provide bulk and make it look full). We'll provide the appearance of enough guards to ensure it would take a good force to capture. At this point, we'll "discover" the scouts, and kill some but let the rest escape, letting them think they've gotten away with some juicy info.

At this point, we'll have other scouts shadowing the enemy force, and at the first sign of a raid, they'll send most back to warn us, while the rest shadows the raiding force. At this point, we'd hopefully have reached the point of the ambush, and simply fake a breakdown at this spot(say break a wagon axle, maybe?) When the raiders appear, our guards will "flee" leaving what appears to be an undefended supply caravan for them to take...up until the point they start falling into pits of course

Any ideas to refine this? I was thinking we could have other supplies an army with a huge logistics problem "fall off", like weapons(blunted training weapons of course) and leather goods, or armor pieces.

The beauty of this is we don't even need to draw them as far as the Duke's forces, since the idea is to entice them to send off enough forces to allow the other lords to force a crossing of the river and join up with the King. And even if they move faster than  we expect(kinda hard to do with no real cavalry forces) all they'll manage to capture is wagons mostly full of straw for their troubles, while we harrass, annoy, and delay as much as possible to prevent them from  rejoining their brethren until it's too late

[Urist McDwarfFortress]

Guys, what if the enemy is doing the same thing to us that we are planning against them! What if the part of their force that's missing, has gone around an crossed the river somewhere upstream and is going to attack our kingdom's main force from the back while their main force crosses the river.

[3man75]

Guys, what if the enemy is doing the same thing to us that we are planning against them! What if the part of their force that's missing, has gone around an crossed the river somewhere upstream and is going to attack our kingdom's main force from the back while their main force crosses the river.

The kingdom is heading to the river so I'm sure the enemy won't suprise them that way.
If what your saying is true we need to hit now but we just don't have that information before us....unless we re scouted but that would send away our rangers who are our best archers.

[Gervassen]

I was thinking along the lines of getting about 30 or so carts(or however many it would take to lure out a sizable portion of the enemy),

After reading it, I suppose that it is a good plan for what it intends to do. My main concern, however, is the scale of the intentions. That plan seems a bit small scale, to be honest. I don't envision more than a thousand enemies chasing after a mere supply convoy escorted by a few hundred men. Whether 30 carts or 300 carts, you don't need five thousand troops to overwhelm a small escort. Chasing a supply convoy just can't bring the entire enemy army out for a fight, I'm afraid.

I would rather lure 8000 than 1000 into our trap. I also don't really see a decisive battle in that plan, just watching some of them fall into pits and then harassing the others. Many may avoid falling. If they run forward in small groups, not needing the mutual support of an organised battle line because they see no credible opposition in front of them, then the slower groups will be able to react when the faster groups begin to fall. They can halt.

If we meet them as an army in a battle line, it will force them into a battle line as well, opposite us. They will charge forward simultaneously in an broad line of battle because to charge ahead in small groups would merely be their death by concentrated fire from our archers. They need a massed assault that will have a lot of forward inertia once it starts going. They think to overwhelm us, but instead, they are surprised by a line of hidden trenches like Lugdunum. No one in back sees what the first rank sees. Thousands will fall into the trenches. The rest will be confused and horrified. We won't harass them afterward. We will scatter them as a fighting unit, right then and right there. There will be a decisive battle on that hill and 3000 will destroy 8 or more thousand.

For this reason, I still prefer luring a large part of their army to our hill and meeting them with the full power of the Ducal armies. I made an ugly mspaint doodle to show how I see the battle.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Guys, what if the enemy is doing the same thing to us that we are planning against them! What if the part of their force that's missing, has gone around an crossed the river somewhere upstream and is going to attack our kingdom's main force from the back while their main force crosses the river.

Then we have to eat them for breakfast, before they eat us for lunch. Albeit when we destroyed their fleet, we made sure that they now need to find actual bridges or fords, and I suppose the King's forces will know all of those places and be watching each carefully.

[Maldevious]

Going to let this linger for a bit, as I don't have the time to post just this minute, and the discussion still seems a bit open. Probably will post this evening (T-Minus 8-9 hours).

[3man75]

I was thinking along the lines of getting about 30 or so carts(or however many it would take to lure out a sizable portion of the enemy),

After reading it, I suppose that it is a good plan for what it intends to do. My main concern, however, is the scale of the intentions. That plan seems a bit small scale, to be honest. I don't envision more than a thousand enemies chasing after a mere supply convoy escorted by a few hundred men. Whether 30 carts or 300 carts, you don't need five thousand troops to overwhelm a small escort. Chasing a supply convoy just can't bring the entire enemy army out for a fight, I'm afraid.

I would rather lure 8000 than 1000 into our trap. I also don't really see a decisive battle in that plan, just watching some of them fall into pits and then harassing the others. Many may avoid falling. If they run forward in small groups, not needing the mutual support of an organised battle line because they see no credible opposition in front of them, then the slower groups will be able to react when the faster groups begin to fall. They can halt.

If we meet them as an army in a battle line, it will force them into a battle line as well, opposite us. They will charge forward simultaneously in an broad line of battle because to charge ahead in small groups would merely be their death by concentrated fire from our archers. They need a massed assault that will have a lot of forward inertia once it starts going. They think to overwhelm us, but instead, they are surprised by a line of hidden trenches like Lugdunum. No one in back sees what the first rank sees. Thousands will fall into the trenches. The rest will be confused and horrified. We won't harass them afterward. We will scatter them as a fighting unit, right then and right there. There will be a decisive battle on that hill and 3000 will destroy 8 or more thousand.

For this reason, I still prefer luring a large part of their army to our hill and meeting them with the full power of the Ducal armies. I made an ugly mspaint doodle to show how I see the battle.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Guys, what if the enemy is doing the same thing to us that we are planning against them! What if the part of their force that's missing, has gone around an crossed the river somewhere upstream and is going to attack our kingdom's main force from the back while their main force crosses the river.

Then we have to eat them for breakfast, before they eat us for lunch. Albeit when we destroyed their fleet, we made sure that they now need to find actual bridges or fords, and I suppose the King's forces will know all of those places and be watching each carefully.

Urist mcpaint job did a good job with the map...I sure hope they don't flank or probe us before a massed charge though.

[Gervassen]

Urist mcpaint job did a good job with the map...I sure hope they don't flank or probe us before a massed charge though.

That paint was bad, actually. Didn't even draw blocks for our cavalry.

Yeah, probing could be a very inconvenient way for them to start the action. Not flanking or probing is an assumption left behind from the fake retreat option. Sensing blood in the water, they won't view us as a well-prepared defensive position dangerous enough to approach cautiously. Just an impromptu last stand that they can smash. Hopefully our archers can discourage any who push ahead of the main battalions.

Ideally the trenches would be entirely encircling the position, but that's not likely with the amount of time that we had. The front has gotten all of our most careful love and attention, the rear has whatever remaining trenches were possible, and the flanks rely on the broken ground. The enemy could flank after the trenches are exposed, but actually communicating this intent to any but the reserves will be hard, once the chaos of battle starts.

I suppose we could set fire to the forest if they actually try to move through it. Gather the dried forest detritus from last autumn into barricades that can be set aflame, much easier and quicker than digging pits and still extremely scary when it ignites the rest of the woods. Oil would make it stick better.

[Maldevious]

You lay plans with the Duke, hoping to goad the Sea Raider horde into an attack on your position on the day when the Ducal forces will be crossing the river. Most of the infantry will march forward the night before, making camp as if to do battle on the next day. However, early in the morning, you plan on faking a rout, as if your men balked at attacking such a superior force. The hope is that this will draw the unsophisticated mass into a headlong charge back to your position, where they will run themselves into your pits.

Given your success against the Sea Raiders, the Duke appoints you to command the large force that will go forward, roughly 2,000 men in total. You are honored by the appointment, and soon find yourself overseeing the construction of the false camp in view of the Capital. As you can see it in the evening light, the Horde, as your men described it, seems ragtag and poorly organized, sitting in a rough semi-circle around Fallsburg. The Capital is battered, but the King's banner still flies above it. Across the river, you can make out torches from the Ducal host, flickering in the distance.

The camp is set, and you put yourself down to an uneasy rest, which is broken by the rustling of your tent flaps at some ungodly hour in the night. Fin rushes in, an unsettled look on his face. "The Horde is moving, my Count. They seem to have spooked, and are trying to steal a march west on us."

Your mind reels through the implications. The siege is broken, it seems. Your stomach drops, though, and you yell for a map, which a page brings to you quickly. Rubbing the sleep from your eyes, you spread it out, and your suspicion is confirmed there on the page before you. If this Horde escapes to the west, they would have an opportunity to beat any potential blocking force to a ford in the river a few days march from Curbiston, and have an unimpeded chance to strike at your lands. Yet the bulk of the loyal forces are not set to join the battle until the morrow. Do you let them slink away, saving the Capital, but potentially endangering your own lands? Or do you strike out now, hoping to hold out until reinforcements hopefully come to your rescue against a vastly superior force?

[GreatWyrmGold]

Hm.

Good of the kingdom and safety, versus glory and protecting our own lands...

ARGH!

[tryrar]

...seems our idea worked TOO well, and a force on their flank caused them to cut and run rather than try to dislodge us. We can't take on a force that size with just this numbers, but if we can harrass and slow them down, we can have a blocking force get ahead of them, if not at the river, then soon after they cross

[3man75]

...seems our idea worked TOO well, and a force on their flank caused them to cut and run rather than try to dislodge us. We can't take on a force that size with just this numbers, but if we can harrass and slow them down, we can have a blocking force get ahead of them, if not at the river, then soon after they cross

True this plus id like to send riders with battle maps ( the kind that have circles and other info on it) to our duke, the river crossers, and back home to the wife. Hopefully if they do attack our wife will organise a good evacuation.

[Gervassen]

Given the geographical relation of Torchester to Curbiston, I'd imagine the travel time from Fallsberg to Curbiston is a good week and a half--or perhaps even two weeks--at the speed of a marching army. Then cross a ford, then march another two days. If they even know the most direct route in a foreign land, that is a lot of marching with trouble nipping at their heels.

No worries, everyone. We can bring them to battle tomorrow when the cavalry is brought up. Our rested infantry will catch up and support our attack on the enemy that we pin down with cavalry. If they do not fight us as a single great host tomorrow, then they assuredly will fight us piecemeal in demoralised fragments over the course of the next week, each day offering the slowest of themselves as sacrificial victims, until nothing is left of them.

1. Send runners to the King and to the hill garrison apprising them of the new situation and requesting them to move with all speed at first light. If our infantry intimidates them, wait until they get a load of our massed cavalry charges plowing into their rear.

2. Another five men can sail down the river with a commandeered small boat and give Marna the heads-up. No evacuations. Keep to our side of the river and try to sail past the main host during the next night. They'll be very tired after marching for a night and a day. And they'll be more worried about the massed cavalry that just began skirmishing them.

3. Finally, get some beauty sleep. We're getting older, you know, and wrinkles happen when you take the little stresses of life too seriously. This is mostly news worthy of great rejoicing, not fretting away the ungodly wee hours.