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[GreatWyrmGold]

To battle? Only if we have to, or there's some requirement that a noble see battle before taking office or something. Too much of a risk of a stray arrow, catapult stone, or assassin finding him, and no real benefit I can see.

He should be seen on the field, amongst his people. Let them know that he is not afraid of getting his hands dirty. Keep him mostly away from the thick of it, though. No front lines for him.

I dunno...at best he's seen as leading from the back while others do the dirty work of commanding troops and fighting, at worst he dies. Not sure how much there is to gain, frankly.
I'm saying "Not sure X" a lot, aren't I?

Not sure about meeting him in person, but aye.

My thought there was that just recently people were talking about meeting him in person to get synchronized and whatnot. We never actually did that, so this seems as good a time as any.

I thought we had met with him when we paid him?

Not war-war...conflict preparations?

I find it hard to believe that we will avoid open battle. Thus, I think that battle is what we should be focused on. Any battle preparations we have increase the likelihood of him noticing that he's outmatched and surrendering, anyway.

It's possible that war is inevitable, but I don't want us to be seen as the instigator. We certainly shouldn't be focusing on military buildup while peace is still an option.

[Gervassen]

My main complaints are that I don't support attacking unprovoked and that I had expected more...radical content from the first sentence, not just details.

The radical content is the speed. Speed makes much of it work, and you can't rely on any of this working after time has passed. It is not supplementary to a slow cautious approach.

Owen is not officially the Count except by his own proclamation and de facto residence in the keep. He has yet to have his fealty accepted and he is known as a potential murderer. This is not rebellion against a true lord. If anyone continues to view this as a rebellion where we are to be faulted, let him state the reasons that Owen has legitimacy. An accepted vow? The love and acclaim of the people? An untarnished reputation for justice? He's de facto Count only because he is in Curbiston with supporters.

Now, if we wait for all those things that satisfy legal requirements, there's a larger chance that Owen finds other powerful allies outside the city which is filled with dissent. He brings those inside. The guards are changed. Everything that you suppose is a supplement to the plan of moving slowly is suddenly voided by, say, Count Zander finding a political advantage in backing his old household knight and sending reinforcements from his county. After a certain critical mass of outside help, standing behind them with swords drawn, even wobbly insiders will stand firm.

That is a pretty good plan, but isn't the dude we just got the captain of the House guard, not the cities guard?

Marshal is a very big office, effectively the control of all military. He would have supervised county-wide military details, logistics, and preparedness for most of the Count's soldiers, and also coordinated with vassals. A separate official would have kept the watch schedules and the day-to-day orders of the city guard. Probably reporting to Uriel, but hierarchies can vary. All this has been switched up by now, anyway. The key here is merely that Uriel is known by the guard as one of them. After years of being vaguely somewhere important above them in the hierarchy, he has influence with them. So we should debrief him on possibilities, and then act with an eye toward speed.

If he's coming to us, either he has an exquisite sense of justice, or his office is being removed or rumours of such are floating. Without his old office, his other holdings may classify him as just a minor knight. Or he may have large holdings outside the city. Unknown.

In any case, this war becomes his now. The former marshal leading the claim is far better than us being out in front. And he keeps his office. We say something like, "I have this boy in my keeping, true, but I have been waiting for someone of rank and importance with a sense of justice to seek him out. If you come to lead his claim, I pledge the full support and co-operation of my town and its soldiers to dispose of as you will, Lord Marshal."  This is regardless whether we move fast or slow.

[Urist McDwarfFortress]

This is fantastic luck! I'll bet a lot of the guard is more loyal to Uriel Lope than to Sir Owen, since he's been the one leading them through thick and thin over several years, while Sir Owen just got there a couple months ago.

We should move now! If Uriel found out about the bastard, chances are Owen will soon, if he hasn't already.

Get anyone together we have on our side and march on Folesden. See if Uriel can arrange for the gates to be open and the guards to welcome us in. If they're loyal to Uriel, maybe we can get the majority of them to surrender or even join us without any major fighting! Even if that doesn't happen, the defense will be unorganized now that the marshal is gone, and Owen doesn't really know the city well. I'll bet Uriel can point us to a weakness.

[GreatWyrmGold]

My main complaints are that I don't support attacking unprovoked and that I had expected more...radical content from the first sentence, not just details.

The radical content is the speed. Speed makes much of it work, and you can't rely on any of this working after time has passed. It is not supplementary to a slow cautious approach.

Oh, I see now.
Still, you had built my expectations up a fair bit with that first sentence. I was expecting something crazy enough to work...and got "what we're doing, but a bit different."
On the bright side, it means we're probably on the right track.

Owen is not officially the Count except by his own proclamation and de facto residence in the keep. He has yet to have his fealty accepted and he is known as a potential murderer. This is not rebellion against a true lord. If anyone continues to view this as a rebellion where we are to be faulted, let him state the reasons that Owen has legitimacy. An accepted vow? The love and acclaim of the people? An untarnished reputation for justice? He's de facto Count only because he is in Curbiston with supporters.

True, but is this enough reason to invade? If nothing else, he is acting Count, and if we up and invade we'll be seen as power-hungry traitors likely as not. Unless we can claim we were manipulated by someone, perhaps...but that's not much better.
Until we can provide justification to invade, I don't feel that we should invade. That's my general policy on invasions.

Now, if we wait for all those things that satisfy legal requirements, there's a larger chance that Owen finds other powerful allies outside the city which is filled with dissent. He brings those inside. The guards are changed. Everything that you suppose is a supplement to the plan of moving slowly is suddenly voided by, say, Count Zander finding a political advantage in backing his old household knight and sending reinforcements from his county. After a certain critical mass of outside help, standing behind them with swords drawn, even wobbly insiders will stand firm.

Which is why we don't dawdle with our peaceful and non-rebellious-looking methods of securing Arthur's position.

...If he's coming to us, either he has an exquisite sense of justice, or his office is being removed or rumours of such are floating. Without his old office, his other holdings may classify him as just a minor knight. Or he may have large holdings outside the city. Unknown.

Hm...

In any case, this war becomes his now. The former marshal leading the claim is far better than us being out in front. And he keeps his office. We say something like, "I have this boy in my keeping, true, but I have been waiting for someone of rank and importance with a sense of justice to seek him out. If you come to lead his claim, I pledge the full support and co-operation of my town and its soldiers to dispose of as you will, Lord Marshal."  This is regardless whether we move fast or slow.

If we can make it so we can blame our actions on Uriel, I suppose we could do the invasion thing. I can't really think of anything that would stand up to basic scrutiny, however.

This is fantastic luck! I'll bet a lot of the guard is more loyal to Uriel Lope than to Sir Owen, since he's been the one leading them through thick and thin over several years, while Sir Owen just got there a couple months ago.

Well, yeah.

We should move now! If Uriel found out about the bastard, chances are Owen will soon, if he hasn't already.

I believe that this is essentially agreed on; the main bone of contention is how violent our advance will be.

Get anyone together we have on our side and march on Folesden. See if Uriel can arrange for the gates to be open and the guards to welcome us in. If they're loyal to Uriel, maybe we can get the majority of them to surrender or even join us without any major fighting! Even if that doesn't happen, the defense will be unorganized now that the marshal is gone, and Owen doesn't really know the city well. I'll bet Uriel can point us to a weakness.

Aside from marching, I'm fine with this. Which means that until I'm convinced we should march, I disagree with most of this. When we do...well, this could work.

[Gervassen]

My only problem is that there's no guarantees of them supporting us, and that we shouldn't be seen as leading the rebellion (even though we kinda are leading it). We need to contact others, I think it can wait a week or two. This is a good idea to implement into our preexisting plans, if possible

Absolutely true. No guarantees. The die is cast. If we get stopped outside the gates, that sucks. There's a stand-off, and we may have to ride away back to our lands and continue outside preparations. If they let us in...

Even capturing the gatehouse and holding it would be a huge deal that advances the progress of this plot by leaps and bounds; to say nothing of the good possibility of getting most the guard behind us, the people behind us, and driving toward the Keep with unstoppable impetuosity. Even if the plot fizzles and we're forced to retreat and barricade ourselves in the gatehouse, that's a gaping wound in the defenses of Owen's city while our outside supporters gather outside to pour through.

[GreatWyrmGold]

We have to plan for after Owen is defeated if we want to win.

What will we do, how will we "spin" this so we aren't the dangerous rebel trying to get cronies in positions of power or something like that?

[Gervassen]

If we do attack, we need to have a chat with Uriel and get him to tell us everything he knows about Folesden. Troop numbers, fortifications, everything.

Yeah, we don't know the possibilities until we confer with him. Just saying that we prioritise whatever opportunities for speed and internal dissent exist.

We have to plan for after Owen is defeated if we want to win. What will we do, how will we "spin" this so we aren't the dangerous rebel trying to get cronies in positions of power or something like that?

Reward a good portion of the old guard with their old positions, and have people like Uriel Lope doing the talking now. Arthur is not going to forget our role in setting this in motion, no matter who is doing the pointless babbling and strutting about during the action. That's why we defer to Uriel now.

Also, don't underestimate those rumours that we floated. They won't lose power after Owen is deposed. Rather, they become even more open and accepted after his disgrace.

[Plato Play-Doh]

My only problem is that there's no guarantees of them supporting us, and that we shouldn't be seen as leading the rebellion (even though we kinda are leading it). We need to contact others, I think it can wait a week or two. This is a good idea to implement into our preexisting plans, if possible

Absolutely true. No guarantees. The die is cast. If we get stopped outside the gates, that sucks. There's a stand-off, and we may have to ride away back to our lands and continue outside preparations. If they let us in...

Even capturing the gatehouse and holding it would be a huge deal that advances the progress of this plot by leaps and bounds; to say nothing of the good possibility of getting most the guard behind us, the people behind us, and driving toward the Keep with unstoppable impetuosity. Even if the plot fizzles and we're forced to retreat and barricade ourselves in the gatehouse, that's a gaping wound in the defenses of Owen's city while our outside supporters gather outside to pour through.

But if we approach and are turned away, we lose the element of surprise. That's what we're really relying on here, and we can't let that get away. My proposition: ask Uriel if there are others that support us who didn't come. If so, then we go with that. If not, then we have the Rat work his magic. While the guards are dealing with the riots, him or his people open the gates for us. Either way, we're getting in. In fact, speed isn't necessary. We need to get this done by the end of the month, but once all of our allies are in order, we march, and the Rat starts some trouble for when we get there. I know we're relying on him a bit too much, but do we really have a choice in the matter?

[GreatWyrmGold]

We have to plan for after Owen is defeated if we want to win. What will we do, how will we "spin" this so we aren't the dangerous rebel trying to get cronies in positions of power or something like that?

Reward a good portion of the old guard with their old positions, and have people like Uriel Lope doing the talking now. Arthur is not going to forget our role in setting this in motion, no matter who is doing the pointless babbling and strutting about during the action. That's why we defer to Uriel now.

Trouble can go over Arthur's head, though. Are we good enough friends with the Duke that he'll assume this invasion was just?

Also, don't underestimate those rumours that we floated. They won't lose power after Owen is deposed. Rather, they become even more open and accepted after his disgrace.

That's a possibility. Another one is that some important people or their advisors will consider the possibility that they were planted, due to the suspicious timing of the rumors' start and the deposition of the Count. There's even the possibility that the King won't make his decision based on rumors!

Not bad, but I've seen better. And I'm still not convinced that we can make this look like we aren't rebellious traitors. A rebellious traitor. (Man, this pronouney stuff is tough with suggestion-game characters.)

[Gervassen]

But if we approach and are turned away, we lose the element of surprise.

I doubt armies can mobilise while retaining the element of surprise. We've got a few days before some trader wheels his cart into Curbiston and gossips about Uriel and some heavy knights coming to Feroshire. A few days after that, another trader mentions all the men being called up to serve in Feroshire. A week later, our allies arrive... I just don't see the surprise remaining after a few days more. On the other hand, we have about fifty retainers who move with a flick of our finger. They can be outside Curbiston tomorrow.

Let me say, if you want a huge battle with lots of drama, waiting to do this slowly and deliberately is far better. It gives Owen time to cut deals with local lords, call on Zanders for help, change the gate guards with loyalists, and all sorts of other measures that will make this story more !!fun!!

I'm fine with any course of action, but I do strongly suggest that Uriel take charge, whatever the other decisions.

Trouble can go over Arthur's head, though. Are we good enough friends with the Duke that he'll assume this invasion was just?

If we mobilise an army, call allies, wave our banners in the wind and march en masse, it looks like an invasion, true. If we go with fifty retainers and the old Marshal, get the city guard and populace to toss Owen out themselves, re-establish the old status quo ante with the same old guard put back into power, it looks like justice done to an interloper and a murderer.

When I mentioned Arthur remembering us, I mean we will still get preferred treatment if we hang back in the crowd now and let others feel as though they are moving this forward. As in Uriel.

And I'm still not convinced that we can make this look like we aren't rebellious traitors. A rebellious traitor.

I'm not convinced that anyone accepts Owen as lord. In fact, all signs point to the contrary. Behind Uriel, the screen is even more secure.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Trouble can go over Arthur's head, though. Are we good enough friends with the Duke that he'll assume this invasion was just?

If we mobilise an army, call allies, wave our banners in the wind and march en masse, it looks like an invasion, true. If we go with fifty retainers and the old Marshal, get the city guard and populace to toss Owen out themselves, re-establish the old status quo ante with the same old guard put back into power, it looks like justice done to an interloper and a murderer.

...True, hopefully, because I seem to be the only one against violent action.
Any ideas on how to get the nobles to see it as such without the time to make the riots and such being taken?

When I mentioned Arthur remembering us, I mean we will still get preferred treatment if we hang back in the crowd now and let others feel as though they are moving this forward. As in Uriel.

Good idea.

And I'm still not convinced that we can make this look like we aren't rebellious traitors. A rebellious traitor.

I'm not convinced that anyone accepts Owen as lord. In fact, all signs point to the contrary. Behind Uriel, the screen is even more secure.

*crosses fingers*

[Plato Play-Doh]

But if we approach and are turned away, we lose the element of surprise.

I doubt armies can mobilise while retaining the element of surprise. We've got a few days before some trader wheels his cart into Curbiston and gossips about Uriel and some heavy knights coming to Feroshire. A few days after that, another trader mentions all the men being called up to serve in Feroshire. A week later, our allies arrive... I just don't see the surprise remaining after a few days more. On the other hand, we have about fifty retainers who move with a flick of our finger. They can be outside Curbiston tomorrow.

Let me say, if you want a huge battle with lots of drama, waiting to do this slowly and deliberately is far better. It gives Owen time to cut deals with local lords, call on Zanders for help, change the gate guards with loyalists, and all sorts of other measures that will make this story more !!fun!!

I'm fine with any course of action, but I do strongly suggest that Uriel take charge, whatever the other decisions.

Yeah, you're right. We should try it your way, and if that doesn't work, fall back on what I've already suggested.

[jaass]

I support Gerv's idea but first we should see Uriel's influence over the military.

[Gervassen]

Yeah, you're right. We should try it your way, and if that doesn't work, fall back on what I've already suggested.

Both plans will be happening at the same time. There's still a mobilisation in the background while we try this little opening gambit, which can fail, or which Uriel can simply decide against based on his knowledge. We're just letting him know that we have troops for a quick strike ready.

[The Alchemist]

I agree with pressing the offensive this month and not letting this opportunity pass us by.

Spoiler: Current issue and votes (click to show/hide)

Plan A: Attack immediately after gaining a bit of support.
Plan B: Wait for more nobles to join us/wait for more reason to rebel against Owen.

Gamerlord: Voted B.
Plato Play-doh: Voted A.
jaas: Voted A.
mcclay: Voted A.
Origami_Psycho: Voted A.
Theodolus: Voted A.
stabbymcstabstab: No vote.
Gervassen: Voted A.
GreatWyrmGold: Voted A.
Jembot: Voted A.
Urist McDwarfFortress: Voted A.
The Alchemist: Voted A.
Talvara: Voted B.
Tomcost: Voted B.

Total:
Plan A:11
Plan B:2

Spoiler: Other Tasks (click to show/hide)

1. Use Uriel to gain support within Curbiston.
2. Contact Duke and our other allies for support.
3. Fabricate a will.
4. Look for additional reasons to rebel against Owen/secure Arthur as Count.