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[javierpwn]

I wonder how good our guards have become at catching nightly trespassers so far.

The bad thing about keeping him at Percival's is that if Owen finds out, we cannot be there to protect him.

It might also be good to tell the Duke we have found a Bastard Heir to the seat of the County.

[Maldevious]

So... let me be honest here. It seems like I can't introduce complicated plot points with multiple possible courses of action, because the resulting reasoned debate quickly devolves into an impassioned argument and then just a pure fight. That sucks.

I hope you can imagine my dismay. There were two to three legitimate plans with seemingly equal support last night when I went to bed, so I didn't post a turn. When I wake up this morning, there was just a couple of pages of angry. Not fun to read.

Are people even enjoying this anymore, or should I wrap this up and pat myself on the back for a 200-page thread? Honestly, I am on the fence at the moment.

[Gamerlord]

NOOO!!! Please don't stop!

[kahn1234]

I wonder how good our guards have become at catching nightly trespassers so far.

The bad thing about keeping him at Percival's is that if Owen finds out, we cannot be there to protect him.

It might also be good to tell the Duke we have found a Bastard Heir to the seat of the County.

Why do you think Percival's lands are undefended?

Percival has troops, just like us. If Owen attacks him, we can ride to his rescue along with the other lords (maybe even the Duke) as attacking another lord is against the rules of the land. Plus it would be a surefire sign that he is not confident and he would most probably lose the title anyway from attacking another lord without provocation.

Also, he would probably not attack another genuine noble. he has no qualms about attacking us due to our lowborn status.



And no, please dont stop this. i enjoy it i just think that certain people dont flesh out their points well enough. everyone on this thread is guilty of this, including Gerv and GWG, among others. I have also seen that in responses to one another, people are quick to stop being civil. It also seems sometimes that certain people intentionally miss the point others are trying to make just to try and force us to take an overly cautious path.

Gerv brought up a good point. people on here are overly cautious, and it has already cost us once (the wool merchant debacle). It is going to cost us again if we take the slow road. Sometimes you have to take risks, but that is beside the point at the moment.

Also, maybe people should try to be more civil and intelligent instead of mindlessly pushing their point constantly without recognising that the opposing view has merit.

AND if both sides or all sides have good point and bad points, COMPROMISE. combine to good points and trash the bad points. it is NOT ALL OR NOTHING. plans can be a mish-mash of different peoples ideas.

[Plato Play-Doh]

Let's NOT just attack. We will die if we do. Also, we can't be telling people about this before Owen's reputation is shaky already, as has already been said. However, Gerv is right about the "proof" thing. This is about power, not law. We need to get other people on our side, that's it.

Please, Mal, don't stop! This is awesome, and I just started to participate. I'm certainly enjoying it, though people should really stop the ad hominem.

[10ebbor10]

You know, I kinda find it hilarious to see how the thread's moving in circles.

Well, here is a full recap. And a plan.

We got:

-A liegelord which doesn't like us.
      -Not established (yet)
      -Married to the Count's lawfull daughter
-The Count's bastard
      -Unknown Pretender
      -Unlawfull
      -Probably Replaceable.


The Plan:

    -Weaken the Count's position
         -Rumours about the last Count's death
    -Strengthen the Bastard's position
         -Introduce him to other Nobles (not nessecerially as the Count, but at least as someone of importance)
         -For that he will need to leave Feroshire*
    -Other things I forgot


Worst case scenarios:
    -Attack on Feroshire
         -Chance of aid from fellow lieges, maybe under the banner of the Count's bastard
    -Attack on Percival
         -Legitimates us to attack the Count, together with some of the other lieges, and maybe even Ducal support. In any case, will probably result in the Count being removed

So yeah, I don't see what extra value gaving the Count's bastard with us gives. Ok, he's safer here, but remember that we're not doing this for his safety/ his good, we're doing this to remove the New Count from his position. If the lad dies in the attempt, bad luck, but not the end of the world. The only benefit is that it would allow the complot to remain hidden longer (reduced chance of the bastard pretending to much), but in the meantime little progress is made. The longer the Count remains throned, the better his position becomes.

*And as per Gerv's suggestion, get to Percival's house. Besides, if we keep him under our thumb, people will start to consider him our creature, which might turn out badly for us. We want to let them thing we support the bastard as lawfull heir, because the new "Count" murdered the old, not because we don't like him.

[kahn1234]

You know, I kinda find it hilarious to see how the thread's moving in circles.

Well, here is a full recap. And a plan.

We got:

-A liegelord which doesn't like us.
      -Not established (yet)
      -Married to the Count's lawfull daughter
-The Count's bastard
      -Unknown Pretender
      -Unlawfull
      -Probably Replaceable.


The Plan:

    -Weaken the Count's position
         -Rumours about the last Count's death
    -Strengthen the Bastard's position
         -Introduce him to other Nobles (not nessecerially as the Count, but at least as someone of importance)
         -For that he will need to leave Feroshire*
    -Other things I forgot

Worst case scenarios:
    -Attack on Feroshire
         -Chance of aid from fellow lieges, maybe under the banner of the Count's bastard
    -Attack on Percival
         -Legitimates us to attack the Count, together with some of the other lieges, and maybe even Ducal support. In any case, will probably result in the Count being removed

So yeah, I don't see what extra value gaving the Count's bastard with us gives. Ok, he's safer here, but remember that we're not doing this for his safety/ his good, we're doing this to remove the New Count from his position. If the lad dies in the meantime, bad for him.

*And as per Gerv's suggestion, get to Percival's house. Besides, if we keep him under our thumb, people will start to consider him our creature, which might turn out badly for us. We want to let them thing we support the bastard as lawfull heir, because the new "Count" murdered the old, not because we don't like him.

And if the new 'count' attacks anybody, he will be removed anyway, probably through force.

[10ebbor10]

A.) This can't be the first time a fight over who gets a noble title has happened, there have gotta be rules and somebody's gotta know them.

Case in point. The rules are... we get more people to back us by whatever arguments and bribes and alliances necessary, and then we win on the battlefield, or appear so overwhelming that it doesn't get that far. It's not a modern country. Your airtight law doesn't exist yet. there's no body of professional national police to enforce it impartially, even if it did exist. Welcome to feudalism, enjoy your stay.

Feudalism is not anarchy. Stop saying it is. The rules do matter. They may not be absolute, but if nothing else they'll get people on our side.

The rules are:
1. Illegitimate bastards have zero right's on family titles.
2. Follow hereditary system in place of County of choice (Though in almost all the current Count will be the correct succesor)

Ie, the rules don't matter much here. We're going to have to break them. First, we need to discredit the Count, then shove our pretender forward as the correct succesor. If he has enough support, the Duke will have no other choice than to legitimize him. (On another note, has the Count's testament turned up. He could have legitimized one of his bastards posthumously. If there's no testament, we can fabricate one.)

The rules control the power, but in the end it's the power that matters, not the rules. If we have enough power, the rules will be bent.

[10ebbor10]

Double post; but anyway

Mal, I don't think you should stop this, but in order to stop these things for escalating in circles, I suppose we enter some sort of voting system for these kind of volatile matters*. It's hard to transmit anger through numbers and letters. Let's not use a poll, but something like this.


*Other things can be done normally, though I think the GM wouldn't complain about having a short suggestion summary around.

Spoiler: The vote (click to show/hide)

Short description of plan A here
       -Variation 1
       -Variation 2
Short description of plan B here

Votes:
[Subject 1] : Vote: A1
[Subject 2] : Vote: A2

Total
A: 2
   -A1: 1
   -A2: 1

[kahn1234]

Double post; but anyway

Mal, I don't think you should stop this, but in order to stop these things for escalating in circles, I suppose we enter some sort of voting system for these kind of volatile matters*. It's hard to transmit anger through numbers and letters. Let's not use a poll, but something like this.


*Other things can be done normally, though I think the GM wouldn't complain about having a short suggestion summary around.

Spoiler: The vote (click to show/hide)

Short description of plan A here
       -Variation 1
       -Variation 2
Short description of plan B here

Votes:
[Subject 1] : Vote: A1
[Subject 2] : Vote: A2

Total
A: 2
   -A1: 1
   -A2: 1

+1

It can also be expanded as more options are placed on the table.

[Maldevious]

If you want to vote, that's fine, but you'll need to administer that as players. My free time is extremely limited at the moment, and it is hard enough just to find time to write a turn post.

[kaian-a-coel]

This is the second time the thread is on the verge on being lockdown, and I don't really want to be the local troll but that's two time Gerv getting all angry (and someone getting angry at him as well, let's be honest) and starting a huge devolving argument.
So everyone calm down. Everyone.
Brace for impact...

[Truean]

Please don't stop this thread. I think we just need a simple way to resolve differences that doesn't involve insults or take up too much GM time.

I don't have an exact idea what that would be precisely but I kinda like Ebber's idea.

[Origami_Psycho]

To our beloved GM: Please don't stop the game.  It is quite fun, and I would still like to enjoy it for a time to come.

IC:
I still say we introduce him to some of our friends, as well we ought to dash off a letter or two to some of our allies and determine on what standing Owen's claim is on.
Also, maybe we introduce him to the Duke?

[Gervassen]

Brace for impact...

You're absolutely right, Kaian.

That was trollish of you. I'm glad that you can admit that.

Okay, look, I don't care what the ultimate decision is. After a bad day, I just wanted to come home and read a turn, any turn. Instead I get into arguments with people that appear not to concede simple things like "If he's at risk at Percivals, he's more at risk here." That bickering along static fault lines is generally not why we're reading this. We want the story. If the story stopped now, that wouldn't be satisfactory for anybody here, it's just that I need to stop participating, or at least be lower-key. Crabnumber and Kaian are more-or-less right.