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[Gervassen]

It all sounds like a "kitchen sink" economic policy due to boredom. We have no food shortage, and four-field crop rotation is a specific collection of plants, not something you can just experiment with by getting new seeds. And farming is second to our real cash crop of sheep herding.

I like the fish ponds, though, so long as they're outside the walls and shaped like a moat.

[Gamerlord]

We need to plan for the future. I'd prefer for there to be a future food source INSIDE any future city boundaries.

[Gervassen]

We need to plan for the future. I'd prefer for there to be a future food source INSIDE any future city boundaries.

Not an efficient use of valuable town real estate. You take the food harvested from outside and put it in a granary inside. Our walls are open to the river, so there's always pier-side fishing, too. I'm serious about the moat, though. If we're digging fish ponds, there's no reason not to dig a moat and let people fish in it.

Lets pay a visit to Sir Derrick Denton. or at least write him a letter showing interest in his state of affairs.

+1 we need this guy as friendly as his father, and he already has heard great things about us. We just need face time.

[GreatWyrmGold]

It all sounds like a "kitchen sink" economic policy due to boredom. We have no food shortage, and four-field crop rotation is a specific collection of plants, not something you can just experiment with by getting new seeds. And farming is second to our real cash crop of sheep herding.

I like the fish ponds, though, so long as they're outside the walls and shaped like a moat.

Well, a few things to consider...
1. Having a wide variety of  food production methods allows us to avoid slight issues like a certain potato famine, barring unfortunate circumstances.
2. If the fish ponds, or at least some of them, are accessible from within our walls, it gives us a renewable source of food should we be siege.
3. Fish provide various nutrients not found so much in crops.
4. Once we set up the ponds, it doesn't cost us anything extra to run (well, except labor, but we probably won't need to worry overmuch about that).
5. If done correctly, the ponds have aesthetic value.
6. It's better to build up a surplus now than have a deficit in the future.
7. Exporting food is helpful.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

It all sounds like a "kitchen sink" economic policy due to boredom. We have no food shortage, and four-field crop rotation is a specific collection of plants, not something you can just experiment with by getting new seeds. And farming is second to our real cash crop of sheep herding.

I like the fish ponds, though, so long as they're outside the walls and shaped like a moat.

Well, a few things to consider...
1. Having a wide variety of  food production methods allows us to avoid slight issues like a certain potato famine, barring unfortunate circumstances.
2. If the fish ponds, or at least some of them, are accessible from within our walls, it gives us a renewable source of food should we be siege.
3. Fish provide various nutrients not found so much in crops.
4. Once we set up the ponds, it doesn't cost us anything extra to run (well, except labor, but we probably won't need to worry overmuch about that).
5. If done correctly, the ponds have aesthetic value.
6. It's better to build up a surplus now than have a deficit in the future.
7. Exporting food is helpful.

+IMO,  very important
8. Firefighting role. Having water source 20 yards away is much better than having a river 200 yards away when you move  water using buckets. Not talking about the fact that ponds will limit fire spread somewhat

[Gervassen]

It's not realistic that you'd feed 300 people from a fish pond for more than one day. I ran the calculations, and you'd need half a football field to supply people the way you're talking here, with sieges and so forth. And that's using a modern formula for fish ponds that are fed and aerated externally. Salt beef in a small cellar stretches much further, if giving people in a siege some protein is the goal.

Our town walls enclose twelve football fields. How much of that do we make into ponds? And who isn't building the wall right now to implement this?

There's been no mention of food shortages, our four-field farming system is not a single crop of potatoes, and we live on a riverside that is not walled. I don't see the need.

And to be clear here, aesthetic value and firefighting are decent reasons for a few small ponds, but let's not pretend that those ponds would be significant food sources.

[Truean]

There's really no reason not to have a moat stocked with fish though if that's doable.... If you want a moat and inside fish ponds ... as long as you've got the room. The only 2 reasons not to have fish in the moat is if, somehow, you could have something more dangerous in there like an alligator but I don't really think we've got any of those laying around. Or, of course, you think any sieging enemy could use it as a food supply.... Either way. Meh. I'm indifferent about this for the most part.

The only thing about farming fish is that it isn't actually that easy. Especially if you have large populations of fish. They will use up all the oxygen in the water or get disease, or something like that. I think we do need an expert or something, because I don't think I could just dig a pond and raise fish very well without any knowledge base for this. Just a thought.

Also I like the idea of expanding our armed forces. We don't want to be unprepared should somebody raid us like they raided the duke. Granted, he has different circumstances than we do but still....

I'm seeing a lot of peasants around the area who have kind of a crap life. As long as we give them work and/or a living, they will flock to us.

[Maldevious]

Just a heads up, I will be on vacation until next Tuesday. So that last post will have to tide you over until early next week.

[GreatWyrmGold]

It's not realistic that you'd feed 300 people from a fish pond for more than one day. I ran the calculations, and you'd need half a football field to supply people the way you're talking here, with sieges and so forth. And that's using a modern formula for fish ponds that are fed and aerated externally. Salt beef in a small cellar stretches much further, if giving people in a siege some protein is the goal.

It would help, and be cheaper than importing salted beef (and would turn a profit).

There's been no mention of food shortages,

Aren't we trying to attract more people? Don't more people need more food?

our four-field farming system is not a single crop of potatoes,

It is, however, a single field. Not exactly, but if something happens to the fields, we lose our food supply. Anyways, diversity always helps.

and we live on a riverside that is not walled.

Oh, yes, because we will always be in control of the river, and of course said river has the same icthic density as a manmade fish farm.

And to be clear here, aesthetic value and firefighting are decent reasons for a few small ponds, but let's not pretend that those ponds would be significant food sources.

That's two points you concede on and three (3, 4, 7) which you seem to have ignored. You could also argue that you ignored 6, because you failed to realize that I was talking about the future.

The only thing about farming fish is that it isn't actually that easy. Especially if you have large populations of fish. They will use up all the oxygen in the water or get disease, or something like that. I think we do need an expert or something, because I don't think I could just dig a pond and raise fish very well without any knowledge base for this. Just a thought.

Yeah, finding someone who knows a bit about aquaculture would be a good first step.
 

Also I like the idea of expanding our armed forces. We don't want to be unprepared should somebody raid us like they raided the duke. Granted, he has different circumstances than we do but still....

Different circumstances like being right on the ocean and having more than a few hundred citizens?

I'm seeing a lot of peasants around the area who have kind of a crap life. As long as we give them work and/or a living, they will flock to us.

Agreed.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

It's not realistic that you'd feed 300 people from a fish pond for more than one day. I ran the calculations, and you'd need half a football field to supply people the way you're talking here, with sieges and so forth. And that's using a modern formula for fish ponds that are fed and aerated externally.

Care to provide calculations? As far as I know fish ponds were quite common for the medieval castles exactly as a food storage that required almost no maintenance

Our town walls enclose twelve football fields. How much of that do we make into ponds? And who isn't building the wall right now to implement this?

One football field is good enough. Aesthetics and fire safety will improve considerably from this.
Yes I know that it's 1\12 of the space. I am sure it worth it

and we live on a riverside that is not walled.

Is that's true? If it is than It should be changed because it makes us vulnerable to infiltrations and forces with a better fleet

  I think we do need an expert or something, because I don't think I could just dig a pond and raise fish very well without any knowledge base for this.

Barring quite large space requirement, basic Fish farming is very simple and relatively risk-free. Dig a hole, fill it with water, not let it dry, make holes in ice during winter and use resistant fish like carps  and you'll be fine.

If you'll try to raise some more expensive fish, then, yes,  you need experts or they'll die out very quickly

[10ebbor10]

Do note that most medieval castles rarely had a garrison exceeding 30 people. 8-12 is much for an average castle.

I'm not so sure how good we are with making things watertight. Fishing holes on that scale might result in a rise of the water table, will all sorts of nastyness as a result.

[Talvara]

Just a heads up, I will be on vacation until next Tuesday. So that last post will have to tide you over until early next week.

Enjoy your vacation!

I guess this gives us a good 5~6 days to discuss the merits, ins and outs of Mediaeval aquaculture (;P) j/k I'm sure other things will come up as well.

It appears that fish farming was mostly a thing for the pious who weren't allowed to always eat meat, and since not all monasteries were close to rivers or had ready access to trade for fish. they would indulge in aquaculture (fish farming) for their protein needs.

I know that at least in Japan and Hawaii farmers would keep fish in their rice and taro paddies. (catching shiny carp mutations and selective breeding in Japan led to Koi-Carp) fish in Paddies actually help with fertilisation and I would imagine pest control as well.

In the stronghold games you had eel/lampray ponds to be made into honour goods (food for the nobility) I guess this was a thing as well?

The Hippy in me mostly likes fish farming because it doesn't drain natural fishstock from the river, In mediaeval times overfishing probably wasn't as much an issue as it is nowadays. but I still see moving away from exploiting natural resources without putting effort into maintaining/replacing them as general good stewardship.  (when I was in Stockholm for holiday I saw that they actually breed and release a lot of salmon into their river and I saw a lot of people fishing in the city)

Modern fishfarming (aquaculture) gives a lot of pollution because they often raise carnivorous fish as luxury foods and dump the waste instead of using the waste. Aquaponics is an interesting field, which combines aquaculture (fish breeding) with agriculture (plant growing) (on youtube you can find plenty of backyard smallscale farmers)

Us being on a river makes fish-farming really not that important though, the monks in ye olden times did it when they had no access to the rivers (I believe there are also forms of fish breeding that don't go into manmade ponds, but instead use fish that are kept in secured nets with floaters in natural bodies of water)

and seeing as our culture doesn't employ flooded paddies in agriculture the fertilisation argument doesn't really hold either.

still, I think its a 'cool thing to do' ;P

[GreatWyrmGold]

I'm not so sure how good we are with making things watertight. Fishing holes on that scale might result in a rise of the water table, will all sorts of nastyness as a result.

Depends on how we did it. I for one didn't think waterproof pools or anything would come into it.


Talvara reminded me of something that I'd forgotten.
Maldevious, are there any commonly cultivated flora which prefer wet environments in this region?
(I know an answer's not coming for a while, but now we'll get a WoG on the subject.)

[Gervassen]

and we live on a riverside that is not walled.

Oh, yes, because we will always be in control of the river, and of course said river has the same icthic density as a manmade fish farm.

I could respond with equal sarcasm, but I'm tired of that. You won't get "icthic density" of a modern fish farm unless you have modern feed and filtration systems. Your belief that this would be viable for more than a few days of siege don't pass simple back-of-the-envelope calculations.

That's two points you concede on and three (3, 4, 7) which you seem to have ignored. You could also argue that you ignored 6, because you failed to realize that I was talking about the future.

I was conceding a few points to keep a good tone to the argument, but you seem to have abused my intentions.

I don't line-by-line and pick out every point. If you make an effort, you'll see your basic assumptions on "icthic density" were shattered, and your unaddressed points all fail. Don't tell me that I have to respond to every point, or it defaults to agreement. That's grossly unfair. It's not an efficient food source. Period.

The only thing about farming fish is that it isn't actually that easy. Especially if you have large populations of fish. They will use up all the oxygen in the water or get disease, or something like that. I think we do need an expert or something.

Yeah, finding someone who knows a bit about aquaculture would be a good first step.

Yeah, someone who knows a bit about modern aquaculture, and filtration systems pumped by electric engines. Could just build fighter aircraft with the same knowledge. 

[10ebbor10]

The Hippy in me mostly likes fish farming because it doesn't drain natural fishstock from the river, In mediaeval times overfishing probably wasn't as much an issue as it is nowadays. but I still see moving away from exploiting natural resources without putting effort into maintaining/replacing them as general good stewardship. 

The Magna Carta has a section that explicitedly prohibits the construction of certain types of fish traps because of their disastrous effectiviness.