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Author Topic: Lordship: A Suggestion Game  (Read 328377 times)

kaian-a-coel

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Re: Lordship: A Suggestion Game
« Reply #1860 on: March 05, 2013, 10:44:42 am »

What amuse me greatly is that, if you are to be believed, snatching the merchant illegally isn't even remotely dangerous, but doing it with the Duke's official legal back-up is equivalent to a game over.
I'm fairly sure it's the opposite, but, hey, middle ages. :P
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GreatWyrmGold

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Re: Lordship: A Suggestion Game
« Reply #1861 on: March 05, 2013, 11:05:52 am »

Knights aren't soldiers, they're nobles who happen to be useful in war.
Killing a noble is a serious offense.
Feuds happened. Probably why "feudal" and "fief" are cognates of a modern word for petty infighting, actually.
Feud =/= Sending out your soldiers to slaughter the other guy.

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Except...you know...we're more well-known than a random knight, because of our unique history and unique governing strategies and new minerals. And, you know, our friends would make a stink, because they already suspect the Count of plotting to murder us
Our unique commoner history really resonates with established noble families. They love it when upjumped fieldhands access their exclusive world. These people would lay down their lives for us, because they are entranced at the good example that we set for other peasants, namely, that ruling a land is not a blood-right and can be done ably by a baseborn.
I mean, our listed friends consist of two neighbor knights, but just think of all that tacit support that naturally accumulates  around peasants that get uppity.
...I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

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6. The Count doesn't have anything to gain by killing us so blatantly.
Except keeping his dirt secret. Dirt that can really undo him, no doubt in his mind. That guy probably has more secrets that just ours.
The fact that he's trying so hard to prevent the merchant from being captured speaks volumes.

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Okay, first off, you didn't answer the actual question. I asked how police officers transport criminals, not how they capture them.
In cars. Guess we need to double down on research and tech advancement. The point with my criticizing overland travel is you've got a squirming captive doubling up on someone's horse.
1. There are inventions called "ropes" and "unconsciousness" that I'm not adverse to using if we have to.
2. Boats, anyone?

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And fast cavalry on your heels.
Again, I find this doubtful.

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Second off, the "nice" thing about the middle ages is that random people are much less likely to have lethal weapons.
Plenty. Robin Hood is just the most obvious. No one can pinpoint who he is, because there's such a wealth of outlaws and robbers in medieval English history to potentially be the inspiration. When you travel, especially through the lands of your enemies who are scared, bandits can pop up out of nowhere and leave no trace.
Those aren't "random people," those are outlaws and bandits. Also, while longbows are deadly weapons, a bow that a peasant might be able to afford is farther behind what a knight or whatnot has in killing/nor-being-killed potential than a pistol or other firearm an average American citizen might be able to afford (and probably could, if so desired [and allowed in his/her municipality]) is from what a police officer carries.

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If the count could afford to disappear us and a piece of paper, not to mention the men we're bringing with us to help restrain the prisoner and whatnot, why wouldn't he have disappeared us before?
He did. He failed. We were on our own lands and not his, so surviving was much easier.
Um...kill =/= disappear.
And it's also harder to do so when awake and with wakeful soldiers.

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Perhaps, but the spy talking and revealing everything (including his dealings with the Count) are lower than the chance of the king reacting to the death of a noble.
Wouldn't even notice. You saved his life and it earned you "vaguely remembered" whereas it would earn you "blood brothers" from most other men.
On the other hand...we are a noble, and the king does have good reasons to enforce the law, which you haven't touched that I can see.

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Actually, it just means the merchant broke a law. For all that anyone not fairly familiar with the case knows, it could just be that the merchant forgot to pay taxes.
Taxes... and we're just the person to execute that writ.
What, the Duke is supposed to march to town to bring in every person who hasn't paid their taxes? It might be unusual, but certainly not impossible. Certainly more likely to anyone not in the Count's inner circle than "That merchant is doing some sort of treasonous thingy, and the Count is part of it!"...until, of course, the Count violates various laws by killing the knight who brings in the merchant.

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Not to mention the merchant should only be taxed by his own lord, which is the Count, who gives a percentage to his lord, the duke.
Well, I still doubt anyone but the Count or others in his trust--and possibly not even them--would guess at the truth from us coming in with a warrant.

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And this is a nutshell is what I'm trying to drive home. All laws are a smattering of local customs at this point in time, and the Duke does not have jurisdiction in the Count's land if the count has a quo warranto writ to hold a court. That was changing, but not quickly.
Of course, you have to bear in mind that the Count has goals other than killing us. In fact, killing us is a means rather than an ends--and the ends to which he may kill us is likely hindered by doing so in the open.

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That "weak central authority" has access to a much larger army than the Count...
Does it? Count Theobald of Troyes gave the King of France a good run for his money. Kept his lands after the war, too. Must not have killed any recently-elevated peasant knights in the various battles and sieges, I suppose. That would have gone too far.
I can't imagine that was a typical case.
Anyways, didn't we see the Count's forces a while back, when attacking those rebels? Wouldn't that be a bit puny for an entire royal army?

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The King's forces are a small familia regis and... troops from other noble families. They won't be dragged from their homes to attack a noble who may possibly have killed a commonborn, rather than a band of bandits in the countryside.
But the commonborn is a noble, who is engaged to the duke's daughter. And that duke, at least, will want vengeance, even if he forgets somehow that the Count likely tried to kill us before. And the Duke has plenty of troops, allies, and power due to his high position (barring archdukes, the highest in the land after the King).

And if the Count is stupid and/or powerful enough to attack us...what would we do about it?


What amuse me greatly is that, if you are to be believed, snatching the merchant illegally isn't even remotely dangerous, but doing it with the Duke's official legal back-up is equivalent to a game over.
Bah, consistency. Who needs it?
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Gervassen

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Re: Lordship: A Suggestion Game
« Reply #1862 on: March 05, 2013, 11:14:03 am »

What amuse me greatly is that, if you are to be believed, snatching the merchant illegally isn't even remotely dangerous, but doing it with the Duke's official legal back-up is equivalent to a game over.
I'm fairly sure it's the opposite, but, hey, middle ages. :P

Sigh. Pay attention.

I advocated snatching the man by subterfuge and getting away quickly before guards could react. I still do. I rate the chances of that enterprise as highly now as I did before, not a jot higher or lower now that we have some paper.

You two advocate marching in, new-found confidence merely because you now have paper, and grabbing the man openly, then swaggering toward the Duke's lands.

Hella different. But hey, reading comprehension.
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GreatWyrmGold

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Re: Lordship: A Suggestion Game
« Reply #1863 on: March 05, 2013, 11:22:33 am »

Sigh. Pay attention.
I could say the same to you.

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I advocated snatching the man by subterfuge and getting away quickly before guards could react. I still do. I rate the chances of that enterprise as highly now as I did before, not a jot higher or lower now that we have some paper.

You two advocate marching in, new-found confidence merely because you now have paper, and grabbing the man openly, then swaggering toward the Duke's lands.

Hella different. But hey, reading comprehension.
Here's a news flash.
Sneaking into the Count's city without being detected isn't easy, and makes our situation a heck of a lot more difficult to explain WHEN we get caught.

In addition, your main worries seem to be that the Count will send his cavalry after us when we kidnap him. It's similar here, only he'll be more justified in doing so (more allies on his side, fewer on ours) and if we managed to get off mostly successfully, those augmented numbers of cavalry would leave several hours later...but still be fast enough to catch up.
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Re: Lordship: A Suggestion Game
« Reply #1864 on: March 05, 2013, 11:36:01 am »

Here's a news flash.
Sneaking into the Count's city without being detected isn't easy, and makes our situation a heck of a lot more difficult to explain WHEN we get caught.

The only thing that needs to be undetected is our motive for entering. If we show up one evening by boat, talk loudly about our wedding plans to be arranged in the duke's city while we're at the dock, and then move to an ambush spot that the Rat arranged near the docks, we get him fast and bundle him onto a boat where his struggling for the whole escape doesn't matter.

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In addition, your main worries seem to be that the Count will send his cavalry after us when we kidnap him. It's similar here, only he'll be more justified in doing so (more allies on his side, fewer on ours) and if we managed to get off mostly successfully, those augmented numbers of cavalry would leave several hours later...but still be fast enough to catch up.

More allies? The dudes in his city are his paid followers. If he falls, they likely lose all patronage. Every guard there is his, regardless who has some abstract legal rights.
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sammyo12

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Re: Lordship: A Suggestion Game
« Reply #1865 on: March 05, 2013, 11:41:08 am »

I think we should get the Rat to find out where the wool merchant is then, send our some of our rangers on our ship with the warrent and get them to go to where the wool merchant at and grab him then flee down the river if anyone trys stop us we can use the warrent the duke granted us, then when we have the wool merchant we get him to confess and then bring him to the duke.
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GreatWyrmGold

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Re: Lordship: A Suggestion Game
« Reply #1866 on: March 05, 2013, 11:49:39 am »

Here's a news flash.
Sneaking into the Count's city without being detected isn't easy, and makes our situation a heck of a lot more difficult to explain WHEN we get caught.
The only thing that needs to be undetected is our motive for entering. If we show up one evening by boat, talk loudly about our wedding plans to be arranged in the duke's city while we're at the dock, and then move to an ambush spot that the Rat arranged near the docks, we get him fast and bundle him onto a boat where his struggling for the whole escape doesn't matter.
...Um. What stops us from putting him on a boat with legal intent, and why is snatching him away in daylight better than proper arrest procedures? For one, it eliminates any delay in the cavalry catching up...

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In addition, your main worries seem to be that the Count will send his cavalry after us when we kidnap him. It's similar here, only he'll be more justified in doing so (more allies on his side, fewer on ours) and if we managed to get off mostly successfully, those augmented numbers of cavalry would leave several hours later...but still be fast enough to catch up.
More allies? The dudes in his city are his paid followers. If he falls, they likely lose all patronage. Every guard there is his, regardless who has some abstract legal rights.
1. What makes you think the new count wouldn't give them patronage?
2. I wasn't talking about them, I was talking about nobles who would be horrified at the notion that the Count could charge out and kill any knight doing perfectly legal business in his lands.

I think we should get the Rat to find out where the wool merchant is then, send our some of our rangers on our ship with the warrent and get them to go to where the wool merchant at and grab him then flee down the river if anyone trys stop us we can use the warrent the duke granted us, then when we have the wool merchant we get him to confess and then bring him to the duke.
1. I'd rather use the warrant to prevent anyone from thinking we're kidnapping the merchant than to use it to try and stop pursuers.
2. We're supposed to bring the merchant to the Duke. Let him get the confession out; the Duke hearing the confession is what matters, anyway.
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10ebbor10

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Re: Lordship: A Suggestion Game
« Reply #1867 on: March 05, 2013, 12:24:11 pm »

I'm not going to snip into quotes and stuff, so I'm just going to represent the 2 scenario's we got here, and give some good and back things, and problems with both.


A: We use the permit for what it's meant for, and and march into the city.
      +Legal
      +Small chance of dieing (staying in the open here, at daylight, nothing suspicious) (Some "bandits" might come around, but it's unlikely)
      - We don't need to expect cooperation from everyone. They won't ignore a Duke's warrant, but they will try to buy time. This is perfectly legal, after all, it's known that the Count doesn't trust us (or any peasant knight), so it's accepted for him to be wary of us arriving with warants we normally wouldn't have. This will give the Merchant plenty of time to destroy evidence and make an escape

B: We sneak into the city, and capture the merchant stealthily
      + Unexpected
      + Unlikely not to get the merchant
      - Warrant= worthless
      - We will be chased, as we just attacked a Count's citizen in his own city. So a quite large chance of ending up in the Count's dungeons.


Also, everyone seems to assume that the merchant will rapidly break and spill all secrets. However, this'll most likely won't be the case. The duke doesn't want a civil war, and quite a few of the secrets this person likely knows will cause one. Hence, he won't let him be tortured; but just normal questioning. Meaning that we'll need to convince this person to spill about us, but not the rest. This is quite unlikely.

Because face it, the Duke isn't going to aid us by risking a war, so the only support we have are the 2 knights.

And yeah, Medieval military structure is actually a pyramid sheme. King rarely has a large army.
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GreatWyrmGold

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Re: Lordship: A Suggestion Game
« Reply #1868 on: March 05, 2013, 12:31:54 pm »

1. I disagree with the high chance of success with our subterfuge. We don't have anyone trained with that. Closest we have it the Rat, who seems more of an informant than a kidnapper, and who doesn't seem too loyal to us anyways.

2. Why are you so sure the merchant would flee, successfully? It's not like the Count would want to try too hard in defying the Duke's will--it would be suspicious.

3. The Duke may not want a war, but if the Count starts one...

4. The King may not have much personal army, but can't he draw from the armies of lesser nobles to perform national goals like keeping the peace?
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Re: Lordship: A Suggestion Game
« Reply #1869 on: March 05, 2013, 12:35:31 pm »

It's not entirely illegal. You can shout the charges as he's being shoved through the dock. I'm interested in the logistics. The intent can be whatever you guys want it to be, just so long as the moment we grab him, he's in a vulnerable place near the docks arranged by a ruse from the Rat, and we do it aggressively without asking the Count's permission. That's subterfuge.

I'm not particularly worried about cavalry reaching us on a boat. And if he follows us on boat, his forces are stated to be mostly heavy men-at-arms, whereas we're mostly archers. On boats, that's a situation I'm willing to risk.
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GreatWyrmGold

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Re: Lordship: A Suggestion Game
« Reply #1870 on: March 05, 2013, 12:43:24 pm »

It's not entirely illegal. You can shout the charges as he's being shoved through the dock.
Well, a couple problems...
1. This leaves the relevant authorities' knowing we're not breaking the law for a dangerously late point in time.
2. We can't back it up with the warrant. This means the Count would be entirely justified in chasing us, as long as he didn't give orders to kill us on sight.

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I'm interested in the logistics. The intent can be whatever you guys want it to be, just so long as the moment we grab him, he's in a vulnerable place near the docks arranged by a ruse from the Rat, and we do it aggressively without asking the Count's permission. That's subterfuge.
1. Why would we need the Duke's permission? We have the Duke's.
2. How are we going to get him in such a position? If we can arrest him suchlike, excellent, but if not it's workable. We have force and the authority and justification to use it.

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I'm not particularly worried about cavalry reaching us on a boat.
Which means that, regardless of if we use your plan or mine, the cavalry are a non-issue.


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And if he follows us on boat, his forces are stated to be mostly heavy men-at-arms, whereas we're mostly archers. On boats, that's a situation I'm willing to risk.
Yes, because of course there's not a single archer, let alone enough to risk wounding the men, and there's no way we can avoid it anyways.
Sarcasm, in case you can't tell.
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tryrar

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Re: Lordship: A Suggestion Game
« Reply #1871 on: March 05, 2013, 12:48:57 pm »

Guys guys guys, I meant wait to arrest him when he's not at a point where he can run/destroy evidence, not grab him in the dead of night. We can fake a reason to be in the Count's town (Say we're on "business", which is even true!) to throw the count off the scent, then when the guy's vulnerable, march up to him and arrest him, then quickly book it from the city and take him to the Duke.
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This fort really does sit on the event horizon of madness and catastrophe
No. I suppose there are similarities, but I'm fairly certain angry birds doesn't let me charge into a battalion of knights with a car made of circular saws.

10ebbor10

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Re: Lordship: A Suggestion Game
« Reply #1872 on: March 05, 2013, 01:08:19 pm »

Guys guys guys, I meant wait to arrest him when he's not at a point where he can run/destroy evidence, not grab him in the dead of night. We can fake a reason to be in the Count's town (Say we're on "business", which is even true!) to throw the count off the scent, then when the guy's vulnerable, march up to him and arrest him, then quickly book it from the city and take him to the Duke.

You guys seem to think you can just walk in/out of a city. Well, normally this would be the cause, but I'm pretty sure the Count'll let some people follow us.

I predict the following scenario. We arrest the guy, then get stopped by the Count's forces, seeing what all the ruckus is about (because no way we're getting out of the city without being noticed). He relieves us of our prisoner*. Then he can deliver him to the Duke, calling in favours and stuff to ensure his little friend doesn't give anything away.

*as our Liegelord, he has that right, I'm pretty sure.
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tryrar

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Re: Lordship: A Suggestion Game
« Reply #1873 on: March 05, 2013, 01:18:10 pm »

Well, I WAS in favor of waiting until he was travelling and not even on the count's lands, but since that option seems to be massively outvoted in favor of 20th century "due process" So oh well
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This fort really does sit on the event horizon of madness and catastrophe
No. I suppose there are similarities, but I'm fairly certain angry birds doesn't let me charge into a battalion of knights with a car made of circular saws.

Gervassen

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Re: Lordship: A Suggestion Game
« Reply #1874 on: March 05, 2013, 01:23:07 pm »

Well, a couple problems...
1. This leaves the relevant authorities' knowing we're not breaking the law for a dangerously late point in time.
2. We can't back it up with the warrant. This means the Count would be entirely justified in chasing us, as long as he didn't give orders to kill us on sight.

Who are the relevant authorities? There's the Duke and the Count. The Count won't be pleased whether its legal or not. If you really think he obeys the law, we can leave a dude that we really hate on the docks with the perfectly legal writ to show the Count as we speed off. I bet that guy dies in a rage.

That's another thing. You guys insisting that the Count knows better than to ride us down while we're operating in an official capacity are trusting a SURLY WRATHFUL DRUNK to behave like a meek choirboy.
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