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[Gervassen]

Cavalry scouts won't do it. Not for drawing them out. Our bite is small, and our wings too fast.

Leave a small garrison at the hill. March the most of the foot troops within sight of the enemy, arriving around evening shortly before dusk. Let them see our infantry numbers, since apparently their scouts are few and unskilled, therefore we simply can't rely on them finding out how "weak" we are all by themselves. Look as if to give them battle on the morrow. Set camp for the night, then desert camp and night march back to our chosen ground, leaving behind a number of tents and a small but tempting amount of supplies and various personal effects. We fled! We were afraid!

They'll come for us because we seem weak. We stand between them and their rendezvous with kinsmen, and we have retreated in the night like a pack of whimpering dogs.

During this, cavalry should hang back a little, but close enough to assist if we need to retreat faster than expected, but there's no sense in showing them all our cards, just enough of them.

[escaped lurker]

Gervassens Idea - as usual - seems to fit the bill. I do fear that the bait is not strong enough thou, so I would suggest that we add a small ramshakle barricade / stake-barricade to the camp. Making it look more serious should do us well, and in the unlikely case that they do gather an ambush before we can "flee", it will slow their assault.

Also, only to clarify - we are talking about our own and our vassals troops here, right? Because they would be much more likely to send a bigger host after us if it is the later. Wich I thus would encourage. Sure, logistics might be a bit trickier, but if - as you already mentioned - they catch up, the additional heavy cavallery will do us well.

If logistics would be a problem, we also might consider to only send the regular troops, because of morale and discipline that might be required for the maneuver. We do certainly not want our levies branching off from the plan, and getting themselves killed.

Umm rangers are reporting that their was a larger force But couldn't find them at their seige camp...are their other camps or did they grow some brains and split up their forces? This scares me heavily because I doubt they just left or died so quickly. Ideas?

We noted that the foraging-teams were desperate and hungry if not starving (And with "Hungry" I do mean it in the original sense of the word. Not the lingering sense of appetite that we call by that name by now). We can somewhat safely conclude that they have massive logistical problems, and a good deal of the army is out-and-about to search for food. Also, food-shortage is pretty much one of the worst things to happen to any army - much more so if they need physical strength like in these times. So yeah, unless they are able to enter the city at large, it is only a matter of time. Not that speeding it along will not do us any good, mind the surrounding peasantry and farmers.

[3man75]

Umm rangers are reporting that their was a larger force But couldn't find them at their seige camp...are their other camps or did they grow some brains and split up their forces? This scares me heavily because I doubt they just left or died so quickly. Ideas?

Btw gerv I agree with Your strat again +1

[evilcherry]

Umm rangers are reporting that their was a larger force But couldn't find them at their seige camp...are their other camps or did they grow some brains and split up their forces? This scares me heavily because I doubt they just left or died so quickly. Ideas?

Btw gerv I agree with Your strat again +1

The standard answer is scout harder.

[Gervassen]

I've been thinking medieval logistics all day. One of the rare delights that this thread provides!

Also, only to clarify - we are talking about our own and our vassals troops here, right? Because they would be much more likely to send a bigger host after us if it is the later. Wich I thus would encourage. Sure, logistics might be a bit trickier, but if - as you already mentioned - they catch up, the additional heavy cavallery will do us well.

I thought to bring all of the Duke's army, actually, minus the hill garrison. If the force is much smaller than that, it's not credible. Minor fortifications are a good touch to add realism, but let's not wear ourselves out.

The Duke's three thousand men look large enough to gamble a last stand, and small enough to change their minds and panic during the night. I'm not worried about logistics or losing men, because we march there in columns, and we set camp in a central place. Hard to get lost. We wouldn't form a battle line until the morning, but by then, we'll actually have marched in columns right back to our trap. At first dawn, they scout our mysteriously still camp, report back about the enemy rout, march half a day to the hill and attack.

My concern is arriving too early and having to retreat during the evening light, before a sudden night march allows us to steal a long lead. Fortunately, the only way to pin retreating infantry down is harass them with cavalry or lighter infantry. We have all the cavalry, which can threaten a charge that obliterates skirmishers and makes the main enemy break out of their marching columns into a line--but we then just gallop away with a laugh. With our superior cavalry, we cannot be brought to battle on any but our own terms, but I'd rather not let that fact seep into their skulls and lead to other implications. We want to appear to be in helpless flight.

Umm rangers are reporting that their was a larger force But couldn't find them at their seige camp...are their other camps or did they grow some brains and split up their forces? This scares me heavily because I doubt they just left or died so quickly. Ideas?

As lurker says, those other men probably split off to find better forage spots. I doubt they have the time, the feeling of urgency and the finesse to be flanking us. The irony would be well worth a laugh, though. In reality, they might even be unaligned with each other now. Gergal has probably lost a lot of respect, since I imagine that some civilians have limped into their camp with news of our deeds by now; and perhaps several clans deserted him entirely for that blunder and the incipient hunger. Fortunately, Gergal still has enough troops that he looks weak if he lets us retreat, and he could use a victory right now, particularly if we have a supply train to plunder.

The standard answer is scout harder.

So long as the other groups are acting independently, it's to our advantage. After we were done with Gergal, we can scout hard with a vengeance.

[evilcherry]

I've been thinking medieval logistics all day. One of the rare delights that this thread provides!

Also, only to clarify - we are talking about our own and our vassals troops here, right? Because they would be much more likely to send a bigger host after us if it is the later. Wich I thus would encourage. Sure, logistics might be a bit trickier, but if - as you already mentioned - they catch up, the additional heavy cavallery will do us well.

I thought to bring all of the Duke's army, actually, minus the hill garrison. If the force is much smaller than that, it's not credible. Minor fortifications are a good touch to add realism, but let's not wear ourselves out.

The Duke's three thousand men look large enough to gamble a last stand, and small enough to change their minds and panic during the night. I'm not worried about logistics or losing men, because we march there in columns, and we set camp in a central place. Hard to get lost. We wouldn't form a battle line until the morning, but by then, we'll actually have marched in columns right back to our trap. At first dawn, they scout our mysteriously still camp, report back about the enemy rout, march half a day to the hill and attack.

My concern is arriving too early and having to retreat during the evening light, before a sudden night march allows us to steal a long lead. Fortunately, the only way to pin retreating infantry down is harass them with cavalry or lighter infantry. We have all the cavalry, which can threaten a charge that obliterates skirmishers and makes the main enemy break out of their marching columns into a line--but we then just gallop away with a laugh. With our superior cavalry, we cannot be brought to battle on any but our own terms, but I'd rather not let that fact seep into their skulls and lead to other implications. We want to appear to be in helpless flight.

Umm rangers are reporting that their was a larger force But couldn't find them at their seige camp...are their other camps or did they grow some brains and split up their forces? This scares me heavily because I doubt they just left or died so quickly. Ideas?

As lurker says, those other men probably split off to find better forage spots. I doubt they have the time, the feeling of urgency and the finesse to be flanking us. The irony would be well worth a laugh, though. In reality, they might even be unaligned with each other now. Gergal has probably lost a lot of respect, since I imagine that some civilians have limped into their camp with news of our deeds by now; and perhaps several clans deserted him entirely for that blunder and the incipient hunger. Fortunately, Gergal still has enough troops that he looks weak if he lets us retreat, and he could use a victory right now, particularly if we have a supply train to plunder.

The standard answer is scout harder.

So long as the other groups are acting independently, it's to our advantage. After we were done with Gergal, we can scout hard with a vengeance.

We should set up the temporary camp to a scale that matches the normal expectation that we would want the enemy to believe in. A few flags that we have forgotten to take away is yelling "we were routed", and if we want them to believe we had 3000 men, we just make enough fires to simulate the daily needs of 3000 men. We can even reduce this number day by day just to look like we are really routing.

[Gervassen]

+1 to a few stray banners left behind. That does increase the apparent panic level.

There are other strategies available. I don't want to suffocate them all because I favour this particular stratagem. For example, we could capture some prisoners, bring them back to the hill, and "interrogate" them in view of our supply carts. We can say things like "peace" and "talk" if Joral taught us those. Then a small group can bring them back to the enemy camp, and release them. Maybe we would get a parley from it, or maybe they'd chase us away. Either way, it sounds like they would jump at a chance to plunder our camp right now, and the prisoners would report how well stocked our camp is. It just doesn't have the same level of deceit and potential overconfidence that routing has, but it opens up possibilities for dialogue again. Some people here like that stuff.

The brash plan could simply be to urge the duke to hit them hard with heavy cavalry right now while they are spread out in the siege camp. We know the banner of Gergal and can hit that part, kill him and escape. Problems solved, once and for all.

[evilcherry]

I think heavy cavalry is something incompatible with surprise.

We don't need to parley here, unless we can talk with high-level commanders of any constituent of the invading army. However I don't see we can give him a good enough reward for him to change sides.

Commoners, though, can always be part of a labour force, free or not.

[Gervassen]

The chevauchee of medieval France demonstrates that heavy cav can be fast enough to be very surprising, particularly against mere unaided infantry. Not saying I support that, just tossing other ideas around. It would be clean and surgical if the enemy camp has his position exposed to southern attack.

Talking option. Given that one of them knows our language, there must be others in the main camp, or even some Kingdom slaves that know their tongue. Releasing prisoners is a good way to signal a peaceful intent, and they'd come out to parley with their own interpreter. Some people here tend to support the diplomatic route and even if it fails, they will still report about our camp and its bounties. They end up either talking, or dying in our trap.

I'll be travelling tomorrow, and I might not check in to argue or clarify, but definitely I personally do still prefer my first plan. Just pointing out there are many alternatives that might fit other playstyles better.

[3man75]

The hell with this send some more scouting missions and find the remainer. Also see if we can find gorgals banner and concentrate the attack their. If we can take him out I'm sure it'll be the finishing blow to the sea raider invasion.

[evilcherry]

1. The Chevauchee is exactly what defines light horse: their main use is to deny the enemy from its own resources, including his own supply and most importantly space. Its almost defenseless against a proper army except a great escape.
2. I would rather grant a pardon to commoners in the enemy army: they could either go back (on their own accord of course) or stay and serve their new lord(manpower ftw). But anyway we need more prisoners first before any kind of parleying can be done, and I suspect that we are already trying this only to no avail.
3. It may be cowardly but I still suggest starving them out. Anyway going in a beeline towards Gorgal's banner would be directly running into a trap.

[Urist McDwarfFortress]

I agree that it does seem most likely that the missing forces have deserted, but we have to assume that they haven't. We need to make sure they aren't in the area. If a second host shows up unexpectedly from an unexpected direction, it could cost us the battle, and a good chunk of our kingdom's army.

[Gervassen]

The hell with this send some more scouting missions and find the remainer. Also see if we can find gorgals banner and concentrate the attack their. If we can take him out I'm sure it'll be the finishing blow to the sea raider invasion.

Several scenarios for the absent troops.

1. There may not be a cohesive remainder for our scouts to find, just hundreds of small deserter bands dispersed everywhere. Too many to really pinpoint.

2. There are four distinct tribes, and one or more may have deserted in entirety. Those are cohesive enough that they can be pinpointed by scouting eventually, but if they are randomly marauding far away, it makes no difference to us in the coming battle. Gergal cannot or will not call them back to his aid. Even if they do show up, I'm confident of the shock that the trenches provide. Those trenches can kill a lot of people, and rout the rest entirely! A trench that is 1km long, 3m wide and 3m deep can theoretically hold the volume of 30,000 average male bodies!

3. Then it's possible that Gergal still commands the absent men, ordering a purposeful flanking attempt. I really don't think he'd respect us enough to trouble himself that much when he could crush us with a massed attack over apparently open ground. Flanking requires careful timing, else being defeated in detail, and is not always the brilliant plan that it seems... still, scouts can sweep through other routes around us. I'd rather not send our actual rangers though, since they're proficient in archery, and the coming battle will be all about raining a lot of arrows down on enemies reeling from our trap.

The Chevauchee is exactly what defines light horse: their main use is to deny the enemy from its own resources, including his own supply and most importantly space. Its almost defenseless against a proper army except a great escape.

It's true that they were doing what light horse often does; but they were knights in heavy mail, and you'd classify them as heavy horse based on appearance. I'm not saying that we do a chevauchee, which makes no sense in this situation, merely that heavy cavalry can be quick and agile in comparison to infantry. That's all.

If we wanted to strike quickly at a specific part of their siege lines, we could do that with heavy horse. Cavalry does not need to get into a orderly formation--unlike an infantry shieldwall or pikewall--and that means that cavalry deploys into an attacking stance extremely fast on a battlefield. There's no reason the heavy cavalry can't raid quickly into the camps where the Gergal banners are before other enemy infantry can react. More glory, quicker results, no trap in needing of drawing them in, but more deaths among knights and nobles. I don't support this, but it's there on the table.

It may be cowardly but I still suggest starving them out. Anyway going in a beeline towards Gorgal's banner would be directly running into a trap.

Wanting to do it all by starvation alone, by doing raids on their foraging, might eventually move them toward our hill when they learn that it's the camp from which we launch the incursions. But when does enough become enough? The timing is their discretion, and they may approach cautiously expecting our camp to be well defended, while also reuniting some other wandering bands; whereas when they react to a fake rout, they will be impetuous and not suspecting that we prepared the area for them--else why would we leave it after preparing it? It simply looks like they cornered us, and we sought a slight hill to make our last stand. The traps will hit them all the harder then, when they expect an easy killing blow.

On the other hand, if they wait too long to answer the raids, then they are that much more weakened by starvation. I still would rather do a fake rout, though.

I see four possibilities discussed so far:

1. Fake rout -- me, lurker
2. Starvation -- evilcherry
3. Charge into the siege lines. -- 3man?
4. Diplomacy -- no one

[tryrar]

Well, I'd support diplomacy if we still had a translator, but as is, enticing them into a trap somehow sounds like the best idea. Gerv's is a good idea, but I just got what I think is a better one: How about a fake supply train?

[speedyth]

How about a fake supply train?

No way in heck would we be able to pull it off. not only do we not have their clothing, but we also cannot speak their language. We would be immediately ratted out for the spies we are.