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[Urist McDwarfFortress]

I really enjoy this game as well, and don't want it to end.

I don't see why people seem to think my plan of an immediate attack is so suicidal. Sir Owen has had, what? A month? To secure his position? Now is when he is at his weakest. If we aren't going to succeed now, chances are, we never will.

Maybe our faction will get stronger over the next few months, maybe it won't. But we KNOW Owen's faction will ONLY get stronger the longer he sits on that throne while our "rightful" count hides out somewhere like a common bandit.

[Talvara]

hmmm... Idealy I would like to push him out without sheding blood, push him out with peer pressure in a way.

attacking the city will mean alot of 'innocents' will get caught in the crosshairs. even if he meets us out in the open warfare is still bad for the county.

also... it might be suicide considering he owns a city, and we own a town.

Lets go around to the other lords and build support for our claimant, Keeping him close. if the duke likes him and agrees to support him I cant imagine a safer place for him than there.

[Toady One]

Forum games don't get reported that often, and it's difficult to understand what's going on when they are, but it appears there is a problem here.  People should endeavor to be calm and careful with their tone.

[The Alchemist]

As a long time lurker of this thread: I really do enjoy this thread and I don't want it shut down. I support ebbor's idea for a voting system and I'd be willing to keep up with it as I have an overabundance of time most of the time, of course I'm sure that someone else could do it as well. As for what to do about our claimant, I agree with Gerv on the majority of his points. On whether we should immediately attack I believe it's nearing Winter, so we will need to at least wait until Winter is over before we can attack or do anything damaging with our troops so we have some time to decide what we do and do any intermediary steps in the time between.

Spoiler: Current issues and votes (click to show/hide)

Plan A: Keep Arthur with us in some way.
Plan B: Send Arthur away to an ally.
-Variation 1: Send Arthur to the Duke.
-Variation 2: Send Arthur to Percival

Votes:
Gervassen: Voted B-2.
Plato Play-doh: Voted A.
GreatWyrmGold: Voted A.
10ebber10:Voted B-2.
Truean: No vote*.
Urist McDwarfFortress: No vote*.
intelligentmoron: Voted A.
jaas: No vote*.
Kahn1234: Voted B-2**.
Talvara: No vote*.
jaas: No vote*.
Mlamlah: No vote*.
Javierpwn: No vote*.
Origami_Psycho: No vote*.
The Alchemist: Voted B-2.

Total:
A:3.

B: 4
-B1: 0 (Kahn suggested this as a possible opportunity, but I have no confirmed votes).
-B2:4

*Based on the interpretation of what I read the comments were more neutral or did not indicate clearly enough(to me) a preference of plan.

** Based on saying that you agree with a forum user.

Spoiler: Minor Tasks (click to show/hide)

1. Tell Marna about Arthur.
2.Spread rumors about Owen and a more eligible claimant for the position of Count.
3.Look for contacts in (Curbiston?) the Count's city especially those close to the late Count who may be agitated by Owen.
4.Contact and pay the Rat to make sure subterfuge goes swimmingly.
5.Send the Rangers out, tell them to map/look out for good ambush spots or where a army is most likely travel through.
6.Hear any complaints or needs our people have. Spend some time with the family.
7.Start exercising again.
8.Figure out how to legally establish Arthur as the heir.
9.Get other Lords on our side.
10.Introduce Arthur to other nobles(not necessarily as a Count, but an important figure nonetheless).

(Please let me know if there are any mistakes and I'll try to keep this updated until a post is made I'll check around every hour I can for new posts and change accordingly. If we do not want to use this method please speak out and with enough support I'll stop.)

[Plato Play-Doh]

not to concede simple things like "If he's at risk at Percivals, he's more at risk here."

If we send him to Percival's, the question is, as who? As our long lost cousin, who just happened to show up when the rumors started, and leaved for Percival's almost immediately? How suspicious is that? Anybody could put two and two together in that situation. If he stays here, we can keep it low-key, as a servant, rather than conspicuously sending him away. That's why he's safer here than with Percival, because it's not about who has the war advantage at this point; if Owen had an excuse to eliminate us, he could, and probably would. We need to prevent him from getting that excuse, and that means laying low, not making rash decisions. The geography is meaningless in this circumstance, all that matters is secrecy. Just explaining my side of the argument a bit further.

I really enjoy this game as well, and don't want it to end.

I don't see why people seem to think my plan of an immediate attack is so suicidal. Sir Owen has had, what? A month? To secure his position? Now is when he is at his weakest. If we aren't going to succeed now, chances are, we never will.

Maybe our faction will get stronger over the next few months, maybe it won't. But we KNOW Owen's faction will ONLY get stronger the longer he sits on that throne while our "rightful" count hides out somewhere like a common bandit.

We can't attack because Owen has the bigger army, and we would just look like rebels. The "Count" would call up the levy, and nobody would have any excuse to refuse. In fact, I would disagree with your thoughts on timing as well. If we wait for the Spring, then Owen, who is unprepared because of his newness, just had to rally a foreign people during the winter, and probably suffered heavy losses, and his reputation has been destroyed due to our rumors. Time is on our side, not his, as long as we hit him before the people lose interest in the bastard. If we time it right (in the spring), then that is when we'll have the greatest advantage (as well as the support of the duke and the knights.)

To our beloved GM: Please don't stop the game.  It is quite fun, and I would still like to enjoy it for a time to come.

IC:
I still say we introduce him to some of our friends, as well we ought to dash off a letter or two to some of our allies and determine on what standing Owen's claim is on.
Also, maybe we introduce him to the Duke?

My vote is for introducing him to everyone after the rumors have spread, for reasons already cited.

Forum games don't get reported that often, and it's difficult to understand what's going on when they are, but it appears there is a problem here.  People should endeavor to be calm and careful with their tone.

This. Also, we all need to stop pointing fingers. It's everyone's fault, and we need to quit being so immature. Stop saying "he/she started it, Mommy." Gerv, please don't step out. You have some great suggestions, just try to keep your calm a bit better.

Double post; but anyway

Mal, I don't think you should stop this, but in order to stop these things for escalating in circles, I suppose we enter some sort of voting system for these kind of volatile matters*. It's hard to transmit anger through numbers and letters. Let's not use a poll, but something like this.


*Other things can be done normally, though I think the GM wouldn't complain about having a short suggestion summary around.

Spoiler: The vote (click to show/hide)

Short description of plan A here
       -Variation 1
       -Variation 2
Short description of plan B here

Votes:
[Subject 1] : Vote: A1
[Subject 2] : Vote: A2

Total
A: 2
   -A1: 1
   -A2: 1

+1. I like this idea.

[Origami_Psycho]

We can't attack because Owen has the bigger army, and we would just look like rebels. The "Count" would call up the levy, and nobody would have any excuse to refuse. In fact, I would disagree with your thoughts on timing as well. If we wait for the Spring, then Owen, who is unprepared because of his newness, just had to rally a foreign people during the winter, and probably suffered heavy losses, and his reputation has been destroyed due to our rumors. Time is on our side, not his, as long as we hit him before the people lose interest in the bastard. If we time it right (in the spring), then that is when we'll have the greatest advantage (as well as the support of the duke and the knights.)

I think what you're assuming is that 1)He's a terrible person who will be a complete bitch to his subjects, which is based solely on the fact that he, and some of the noble class, doesn't like us rising up to the nobility from being a simple farmer; 2)That the little people will really care who's in charge(unless he's really nice or really mean, then they'll care a lot); and 3)How would he suffer heavy losses?

But if he shapes up to all of those and all the other knights and barons hate him, hell yeah, let's go for it.  After we make sure we have Arthur on a good footing.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Okay, look, I don't care what the ultimate decision is. After a bad day, I just wanted to come home and read a turn, any turn. Instead I get into arguments with people that appear not to concede simple things like "If he's at risk at Percivals, he's more at risk here." That bickering along static fault lines is generally not why we're reading this. We want the story. If the story stopped now, that wouldn't be satisfactory for anybody here, it's just that I need to stop participating, or at least be lower-key. Crabnumber and Kaian are more-or-less right.

I understand. Although, I'd like to note that you picked something for me to concede to is kinda the basis of our argument, so you basically asked me to surrender the argument as a compromise.

We can't attack because Owen has the bigger army, and we would just look like rebels. The "Count" would call up the levy, and nobody would have any excuse to refuse. In fact, I would disagree with your thoughts on timing as well. If we wait for the Spring, then Owen, who is unprepared because of his newness, just had to rally a foreign people during the winter, and probably suffered heavy losses, and his reputation has been destroyed due to our rumors. Time is on our side, not his, as long as we hit him before the people lose interest in the bastard. If we time it right (in the spring), then that is when we'll have the greatest advantage (as well as the support of the duke and the knights.)

I think what you're assuming is that 1)He's a terrible person who will be a complete bitch to his subjects, which is based solely on the fact that he, and some of the noble class, doesn't like us rising up to the nobility from being a simple farmer; 2)That the little people will really care who's in charge(unless he's really nice or really mean, then they'll care a lot); and 3)How would he suffer heavy losses?

But if he shapes up to all of those and all the other knights and barons hate him, hell yeah, let's go for it.  After we make sure we have Arthur on a good footing.

1. Which part relies on that, the levy? It's hardly the most important bit.
2. True.
3. Who knows?


And yeah. I think we need some kind of reform, but I don't think we'll be any more successful than Congress has been with most major reforms unless we can identify and remove the core causes of the problem.
To me, it seems to be that things kept escalating in seriousness, bit by bit, from "just another game" to "serious business". Any proposed solutions?

[Maldevious]

So after a day of consideration, I will continue to run this game. But I want to be very clear with all the players: this is the last chance we have to play nicely together.

Strike one was back when I had to lock the thread a month or so ago. Strike two was when we just got reported and had to waste Toady's time. So we're on strike three now.

For those that aren't familiar with baseball, that means that if we go off the rails one more time, I'll thank you all for playing and lock the thread permanently. I have very little patience remaining for squabbling and bickering, so I earnestly ask you one final time to play together respectfully and collaboratively.

Hopefully this "No Tolerance" policy will result in good behavior going forward, as I'm rather out of other ideas.

With that being said, I will post the upcoming turn tomorrow morning. If there is still no clear winner, I'm just going to flip a coin and figure it out that way. Thank you for your cooperation going forward.

- The GM

[Gamerlord]

Just saying it now: Whoever gets this thread locked will never gain my forgiveness. This game is too good to lose.

[Gervassen]

Thanks for your saintly patience, Mal.

I probably did instigate this by saying something blatantly true, if too colourfully worded. The long rambling discussions among the suggestors have problems with readability. Call that scenario what you will, if you don't like my particularly vulgar wording. Yet it is true. Truth is not an acceptable excuse for blurting out undiplomatic things. I should know that. However, the verbose discussions among suggestors here are a chore to sift through, and people rarely concede anything. If you don't feel like responding, that's automatically interpreted as a defeat by those who tirelessly respond, rather than as utter ennui toward the repetitive arguments. If you do engage, expect no movement among those who have staked out a position. You can make a good point against an assertion, and the next reply has the same assertion worded differently.

As a trial balloon, several times I've said "Okay, I'm changing my opinion" or "Okay, I'm incorporating other suggestions" to see if I can get reciprocity snowballing. Go ahead and verify this. I can't remember anyone else picking this spirit up.

I really think suggestions should be pointed toward Mal rather than toward other suggestors, because there really isn't anything like a give-and-take collaborative atmosphere here. People here literally--LITERALLY--have argued for pages about which side of the river the cattle should be on. And if someone is argued into a corner, they simply go silent rather than change their "vote" or acknowledge a better plan. There's no real discussion among people here, and responding directly to each other is largely pointless.

I also think direct democracy is an extremely mediocre system. It certainly led Athens astray. Mal is capable of deciding what makes his story best without people breathing down his neck by meta-gaming for voting blocs and counting and recounting votes. I keenly feel the absence of several people that used to make this thread fun--although several other people still currently here similarly have my respect, I should quickly add--and those are "votes" that are now lost, which enabled Sir Stone to do cool things in the past. Let's get beyond voting as a source of conflict and trust Mal as the writer of the story to pick a mixture of what is popular and what fits into his story.

I pledge to do what it takes to keep the story running smoothly, going forward, but I really did reach a moment where I grew tired with the mechanics of this thread. I apologize for how I expressed that. 

[Plato Play-Doh]

We can't attack because Owen has the bigger army, and we would just look like rebels. The "Count" would call up the levy, and nobody would have any excuse to refuse. In fact, I would disagree with your thoughts on timing as well. If we wait for the Spring, then Owen, who is unprepared because of his newness, just had to rally a foreign people during the winter, and probably suffered heavy losses, and his reputation has been destroyed due to our rumors. Time is on our side, not his, as long as we hit him before the people lose interest in the bastard. If we time it right (in the spring), then that is when we'll have the greatest advantage (as well as the support of the duke and the knights.)

I think what you're assuming is that 1)He's a terrible person who will be a complete bitch to his subjects, which is based solely on the fact that he, and some of the noble class, doesn't like us rising up to the nobility from being a simple farmer; 2)That the little people will really care who's in charge(unless he's really nice or really mean, then they'll care a lot); and 3)How would he suffer heavy losses?

But if he shapes up to all of those and all the other knights and barons hate him, hell yeah, let's go for it.  After we make sure we have Arthur on a good footing.

Sorry, what I meant by that was that he isn't really prepared for Winter. He hasn't had time to prepare for winter, he hasn't even had time to fully settle into office. According to the Rat, he already has made it a bad place to live, and going into winter without organization and strong leadership at a time like this? *shudders*. That's not a trivial thing at this time. Unless he's an amazingly good leader, it's gonna be hard to get through the season whole. Sorry for my poor wording of that point.

Just saying it now: Whoever gets this thread locked will never gain my forgiveness. This game is too good to lose.

This.

[Maldevious]

Here's hoping to a cordial atmosphere going forward! I really prefer that this game keep going, so let's do our best, okay?

Year 6, Winter

Winter is cold and brutal this year. Alongside Marna, who has already deduced the nature of your plot and supports replacing the antagonistic "Count," you decide it will be safest to send young Arthur to Sir Percival's estate for safe keeping as you scheme. You write a short letter informing him of what you wish to do, and send Arthur off along with the prostitute to your friend's manor. Several weeks later, you receive a letter in return, stating that he will watch your cousin as if he were his own.

With that out of the way, you turn your attention to other tasks related to your upcoming coup. You send a letter to The Rat, along with a rather hefty bag of gold, asking him to start spreading several rumors in Curbiston. These include that Owen is being cuckolded, that he murdered the old Count, and that there is a more legitimate Foles gathering power in the countryside.

You receive a note in return in a month through a blistering snowstorm, stating that the rumors are being passed along, and even taken up by bards in taverns and local acting troupes. The people of Curbiston seem to be chafing under "Count" Owen, with his disdain for the common man, and your rumors are simply stoking the fires.

Exercise is a priority for you this winter, and you thankfully feel you are moving past your lingering wounds. Your health is good again, although you still are not as fit as you once were before the bear incident.

Consulting with your Mr. Dent about the legality of the claimant, he simply states that a bastard would normally not have a claim, but he could easily "find" a will and testament legitimizing him ex post facto. If you are committed to this plot, he speculates, you shouldn't worry too much about the legality of it all.

Work on the walls stops, but some work is completed inside the tower over the winter.

In lighter news, your young son is babbling warmly now, and has taken his first tentative steps, much to your delight. He is now toddling around the manor, following you around whenever you are in the house. It is quite heartwarming.

Late in the winter, nearly to the break of spring, your Rangers are out scouting when they can, looking for potential ambush locations, when a group of them return at a gallop, escorting a group of five heavily armed and armored riders. Your heart skips a beat when you see that it is Sir Uriel Lope, the former Count's Marshall.

You stride out to meet him, hand on your sword, and he hails you. "Sir Stone. I understand that you have located one of the Count's bastard sons? I'm riding at the head of a good portion of Foles family guard, and we ride to the son's banner because we cannot abide that foreigner ruling Folesden as Count. The die has been cast, as it were."

Your mind reels through the implications. This is open rebellion. You can turn them away, or move swiftly in March to gather your power and strike. What shall you do?

Spoiler: "Baronet Samuel Stone" (click to show/hide)

Age: 25 - February birthday
Spouse: Lady Marna Stone - Age 21 - April Birthday
Children: Sir Isaac Stone - Eleven Months Old - March Birthday

Good Health
Great Fitness

Literate
Natural Archer
Fine Man of the People
Fine Swordswman
Above Average Rider
Above Average Woodsman
Above Average Heroic Combatant (fighting against the odds)
Average Etiquette
Average Lancer
Average Shield User
Average Armor User
Average History
Poor Legal Mind
Poor Rhetoric

Spoiler: "Equipment and Possessions" (click to show/hide)

Weapons
Militia-grade Short Sword
Fine Longsword
Iron-tipped Lances

Armor
Steel Plate Armor
Mail Shirt
Brigandine Armor
Fur cloak and leggings
Iron Shield
Steel Barding for Destrier

Transport
Felucca
Mottled Grey Hunter
White Destrier

Housing
Brick and Lumber Manor
Fine Furniture
Stag Skull
Bear Skull
Bear Pelt Rug
Falconry Mews
Holes in ground (fish ponds without water or fish)

Misc.
Bear Claws
Average Clothing
Silver Sun Necklace with Gold Pendant
Bound New Testament
Book of Laws
Cask of Beer
Stone Weights
Draft of "The Incursion of the Sea Raiders and the Battle of Torchester"

Spoiler: "Feroshire (Capital Town)" (click to show/hide)

Treasury - Low
290 Citizens

Services and Housing
Nice Communal Housing
Mix of Wood and Brick Housing
Nice Inn
Rowdy Inn
Small Courthouse
Small School and Scribe
Small Theatre
Communal Cellars

Defense
Wooden Palisade with watchtowers
Stone Tower (68% complete)
Stone Walls (60% complete)
Three longboats
Fake Town for river defense

Trade and Travel
Brick Roads
Medium Brick Paved Market
Medium Dockyard
Two-way Ferry
River Parlon (90% dredged)
Gravel Road to Carshire
Gravel Road to Silverhills

Industry
Large Clayworks
Smokehouse
Watermill (Lumber Mill and Grindstone)
Growing Medium Shipyard
Brewery
Stables - Large herd of horses
Medium Furniture Workshop

Spoiler: "Your Land" (click to show/hide)

Medium (5x city size) population (Loyal)
River Parlon (fertile banks on both sides, light forest to the north)

Settlements
Feroshire - Your capital
Silverhills - Small hamlet by the mines

Farming
Nice parcel farms south of the river (four field crop rotation)
Crude parcel farms north of the river (four field crop rotation)
Fine Communal Farm (four field crop rotation)
Medium Vineyard - Ice wine experiment
Grand Flock of Sheep
Medium Flock of Cattle
Communal Grazing Land

Defense
Fortified Average Barracks, Armory, and Obstacle Course with Furnaces and Forges
Jousting practice field

Trade and Travel
Gravel Roads
Medium Warehouse

Industry
Medium Fishing Fleet
Fortified Mines near Silverhills (silver, copper, gold, iron, gems)
Metalworks in Silverhills

Misc.
Trash Pit
Graveyard

Spoiler: "Your Forces" (click to show/hide)

Ranged - Longbows, iron short swords, fur armor, mounts
Two elite Archers
Six veteran Rangers
Three regular Rangers
Eight veteran Archers
Seven regular Archers

Melee - Iron halberds, iron brigandine armor, iron short swords, mounts
Twelve veteran Halberdiers
Eight regular Halberdiers

City Guard - Short bows / Iron short swords, fur armor, wooden shields
Seven Green Wall Archers
Ten regular Watchmen

Reserve
Mandatory Bow or Halberd Training for Able-bodied Men

Spoiler: "Your people" (click to show/hide)

Skilled Potters
Above Average Jewelers
Above Average Trappers
Above Average Miners
Average Metalworkers
Average Wine Makers
Journeymen Masons
Journeymen Furniture Builders
Journeymen Horse Breeders
Journeymen Weaponsmiths
Journeymen Armorers
Novice Siege Engineers

Spoiler: "Nearby" (click to show/hide)

Market Town of Carshire - Gravel Road
Folesden - Land of Count Foles - Downstream
   * Curbiston - County Seat of Folesden
Land of Sir Denton - Upstream
Land of Sir Percival - Adjacent to Sir Denton's land, across the river
Hemswood Abbey - Far Upstream - Known for dark beer
Lands of Duke Erran - Across the river to the north - Used for hunting
   * Torchester - Duke Erran's Capital - Damaged metropolis with a bustling port located on a wide estuary

Spoiler: "Known Lords by Rank and Relationship" (click to show/hide)

King Edward Geronos IV, Lord of the Falls, Keeper of the Flame, Seer of the Dawn - Known

Duke Erran - Fond

Count Owen - Your Liege Lord - Antagonistic
Count Gorgan - A fine fighter - Introduced
Count Zanders - Introduced

Sir Derrick Denton - Slightly warm but distant
Sir Alan Percival - Close Friend
Sir Uriel Lope - Count's Marshall - Unsure
Sir Melvin - Lady Marna's brother, Duke Erran's nephew - Close Friend
Sir Ivanson - A renowned jouster - Acquaintance

Lady Marna - Wife - Loving
Lady Iris - Lady Marna's mother, Duke Erran's younger sister - Cordial

Isaac Stone - Your First Son - Infant

Spoiler: "Important Citizens by Occupation" (click to show/hide)

Luther Logan - Sword and Mace - Squire
Fin - Captain of the Militia
Oswald - Ranger Captain
William Dent - Steward, Mayor
Victor Irlof - Master of the Market, Treasurer
Curtis Stumpf - Miner, Councilman
Ian Wood - Carpenter, Councilman
Marge Kannity - Brewer
Gunther Agnacious - Philosopher

Shipwright
Architect
Armorer
Weaponsmith
Horse Breeder
Scribe
Healer
Wool Merchant

Spoiler: "In Fond Remembrance" (click to show/hide)

Sir Alan - Your first squire - Killed in the Battle of Torchester
Sir Blake Denton - Your good friend and confidant - Killed in the Battle of Torchester
Tor - Your first Captain - Killed by the brigand "Ox" in a forest skirmish
Count Aaron Foles - Fell drunkenly to his death from the balcony of a whorehouse

[Gamerlord]

Let's have them disperse throughout the countryside for a little while so we can send off a letter to the Rat. We need to know if the place is ready to revolt.

[Plato Play-Doh]

If we send them away, we seem noncommittal. Our plan is to attack in the Spring, and that is what we have to do. The more people on our side, the better. My only worry is that perhaps this group is playing both sides, as it were. I'd rather not have double agents in our midst. Keep them under close scrutiny, but agree. Also, send letters to our allies (the Duke and the Knights). Once we hear back from them, unless any have any objections, we strike. Call Arthur back as well, and hope that he's been learning to fight over the Winter. He shouldn't be on the front lines, but he should certainly make an appearance on the battlefield. Oh, and see about getting the Rat to rally the masses once we reach the city. When we get there, I want to see riots already going on.

[Origami_Psycho]

If we send them away, we seem noncommittal. Our plan is to attack in the Spring, and that is what we have to do. The more people on our side, the better. My only worry is that perhaps this group is playing both sides, as it were. I'd rather not have double agents in our midst. Keep them under close scrutiny, but agree. Also, send letters to our allies (the Duke and the Knights). Once we hear back from them, unless any have any objections, we strike. Call Arthur back as well, and hope that he's been learning to fight over the Winter. He shouldn't be on the front lines, but he should certainly make an appearance on the battlefield. Oh, and see about getting the Rat to rally the masses once we reach the city. When we get there, I want to see riots already going on.

Sounds good to me.  Except I was under the impression that we weren't going to attack.