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Total Members Voted: 200

[TheKaspa]

I just realized we can have sunberries outside of good areas.
SUNSHINE FOR EVERYDWARF
EDIT: ALSO GNOMEBLIGHT! ISN'T THAT FANTASTIC?!

I have still to master plump helmet, what are sunberries good for?

[Yuli Vlasi]

I have still to master plump helmet, what are sunberries good for?

Sun berries are an aboveground crop that can only be found in good areas. When brewed they give the most valuable booze in the game, which is called sunshine. As a comparison, dwarven wine has a value of 2, while sunshine has a value of 5. Currently you can't grow sun berries outside of a good biome because there's no way you can get the seeds out of your fortress
You can buy sunberries from elven caravans sometimes, but seriously, elves. No way I'm buying that stuff from them.
But that shouldn't be a problem because we can transport them via adventurers in the next version.

As for gnomeblight, it's basically a poison made from a special plant which kills all gnomes it touches. You can have a pit filled with that stuff, throw your gnomes in there and watch them melt or something like that.

[mastahcheese]

ALSO GNOMEBLIGHT! ISN'T THAT FANTASTIC?!

It would be nice to see some gnomeblight be properly used for once.

I've been thinking about the dark dwarves, how are we going to distinguish them? Are we going to have them like in dark fortresses or actually be thier own race?
Also, what differences would they have? Obviously they would have the BABYSNATCHER token to make them evil, but what else would make them unique without just replacing the goblins with jerkish dwarves?

[TheKaspa]

Insufference for light, as I suggested before.
They should appear from caverns, and be very fertile.

[Yuli Vlasi]

- visual differences like dark skin (skin made of stone?), white hair and eyes or no hair and/or eyes at all.
- hard to kill, but weak.
- their beards count as bodyparts/ they can use their beards as hands to strangle someone. <--- AWESOME
- playable in adventure mode.
- are getting bad thoughts from sunlight/good weather in fortress mode. It shouldn't kill them.
- they make booze FROM BLOOD

[mastahcheese]

- visual differences like dark skin (skin made of stone?), white hair and eyes or no hair and/or eyes at all.
- hard to kill, but weak.
- their beards count as bodyparts/ they can use their beards as hands to strangle someone. <--- AWESOME
- playable in adventure mode.
- are getting bad thoughts from sunlight/good weather in fortress mode. It shouldn't kill them.
- they make booze FROM BLOOD

- visual differences like dark skin (skin made of stone?), white hair and eyes or no hair and/or eyes at all.
This is good, other than the rock skin, we need to have them function the same, as it will basically be a two-side player war, they need to be balanced

- hard to kill, but weak.
Again, balance issues. Same with beard hands.

- playable in adventure mode.
Yes, they would be put in to allow players to fight as good or evil, without any other major changes to their forts' or adventurers' lifestyles.

- are getting bad thoughts from sunlight/good weather in fortress mode. It shouldn't kill them.
I can't think of anyway to do this, unless proper sun-hating will be added in for goblins, and then we might as well just be goblins.

- they make booze FROM BLOOD
No.

They should appear from caverns, and be very fertile.

Like caves the way kobolds do? Only have them migrate out to non-cave sites, such as dwarven fortresses and dark towers, until someone make their own Dark Dwarf fortress? Cause that actually sounds pretty cool, making normal dwarves their normal force, but Dark dwarves an almost exclusivly player run operation.

Remember that we probably shouldn't mod out the game to much, since it will be just released when we start.
I think that for the dark dwarves, we need to focus on narrowing down ethics, they shouldn't be clones of goblins.
As for the world itself, in the generation process, any suggestions? Possibly change the numbers of good or evil biomes, for example?

[eharper256]

Its always good to specify 1-2 large good and large evil biomes, yes.

[Yuli Vlasi]

- they make booze FROM BLOOD
No.

Sadly, that is exactly what I expected.

[Talvieno]

- visual differences like dark skin (skin made of stone?), white hair and eyes or no hair and/or eyes at all.
- hard to kill, but weak.
- their beards count as bodyparts/ they can use their beards as hands to strangle someone. <--- AWESOME
- playable in adventure mode.
- are getting bad thoughts from sunlight/good weather in fortress mode. It shouldn't kill them.
- they make booze FROM BLOOD

Making booze from blood is impossible, but making it from other bodyparts isn't. My unreleased Corpse Fortress mod does this. Unfortunately, it makes everything far, far too easy. Especially if you let dwarves butcher sentients. I'm with Mastahcheese's "No." on this one.
    You can't have bad thoughts from sunlight any more than you to start with. That's hardcoded in. Making it so dwarves simply can't live aboveground, as well as trying to make them embark underground, is impossible.
    Playable in adventure mode is easy. That's just a line or two in the raws.

Really, I was thinking just regular dwarves, but "evil", as in babysnatchers. Hopefully dark towers/fortresses, which won't be hard - they won't be immortal, so you  get the towers. And then give them dark fortresses as a potential place to live.

Dark skin is doable. I agree completely with Mastahcheese's balance issues. We don't want them overpowered.

[Yuli Vlasi]

Alright.

[Talvieno]

Its always good to specify 1-2 large good and large evil biomes, yes.

I agree with this. I usually at least double the amount of good and evil biomes, for my own games. Usually a lot more. Toady has it defaulted to an oddly low setting.

Alright.

Sorry to disappoint.

[Yuli Vlasi]

I'm not dissapointed. I completely agree with the idea that dark dwarves shouldn't be overpowered but I do think the beard-hands are a good idea
I had the 'booze from blood'-idea because of the barrels full of useless blood the traders bring sometimes. I just thought it needed some purpose. Adding custom items to the game isn't really necessary in my opinion, it's enough too just change the dwarves appereance.
Is it possible to create custom livestock for the dark dwarves? Like naked cave-bears as a replacement for dogs?
http://i.imgur.com/EqDGT.jpg

[Talvieno]

It's possible, but it would be tricky... Tricky to the point that no, it's not possible. That's the short version. Here's the long one:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

When you assign a specific animal as domesticated in the raws, every civ automatically has access to it, as far as I know, provided their entity files allow them to keep animals as pets/livestock. If you want them just to siege you with the creatures, suddenly everything becomes a lot more complicated. "Large predators", mount/mount_exotic and one other tag (memory is a bit iffy here) are what influences whether or not a creature can be taken on a siege, as well as where the creature lives. If the creature lives everywhere, any civ can get it. If the creature lives only on the mountains, then only civs with access to mountains can get ahold of it. It all depends on where the entity in question likes to live. If, say, we made "naked cave bears" only live in caves, then theoretically, dark dwarves would have them if they had access to the caverns. However, this upsets the dwarven civ's natural subterranean's habits, and there's no way to get around it. If we decided that dark dwarves should be evil, and cave bears as well, then you would get dark dwarves that had cave bears for sieges, and regular dwarves wouldn't. However, this would practically destroy the balance of the game, as evil regions tend to kill off sentient civs. It's why you see goblins moving out of evil regions during worldgen. If you made it so that "naked cave bears" only live in tropical swampland, and so do dark dwarves, this would effectively solve your problem, if you made regular dwarves have no access to that area... but again, the balance would be horribly off, as dark dwarves would be seriously lacking when it came to total potential real estate.

Adding custom items to the game isn't really necessary in my opinion, it's enough too just change the dwarves appereance.

If this is what you want, it's incredibly easy to change armor/weapon names, and create new items that are technically clones of existing ones. For example, having "dark mail" instead of "chainmail", or "demon helms" instead of regular helms.

Easiest of all is to change the dwarven symbols, so that the names are different. Instead of the typical names, you could get names related to murder and death, bloodshed, battles, violence and gore. This would have absolutely no effect on balance whatsoever, and would give the game a subtle "dark dwarf" feel.

[Yuli Vlasi]

Thanks for explaining the problem in such detail. I should have a look into modding myself, any tips on how I should start?

[Tevish Szat]

Been watching this thread for a bit (great idea!), Dark Dwarves could be made distinct from goblins with their ethics: Goblins consider most 'crimes' personal matters at worst, but Dark Dwarves could and likely would be fond of brutal justice for things they don't like, socially sanctioning or even requiring other ethical issues.

I would personally guess "Dark Dwarves" to have ethics along these lines --

Assault: Serious Punishment
Eat Sapient Kill: Personal Matter
Eat Sapient Other: Acceptable (Dark Dwarves can butcher sapients)
Kill Animal: Acceptable
Kill Enemy: Required
Kill Entity Member: Capital Punishment
Kill Neutral: Justified if no repercussions
Kill Plant: Acceptable
Lying: Serious Punishment
Make Animal Trophies: Acceptable
Make Same Race Trophies: Personal Matter
Make Sapient Trophies: Acceptable
Oath Breaking: Capital Punishment
Slavery: Required
Theft: Justified if no repercussions See below?
Torture Animals: Personal Matter
Torture as an Example: Acceptable
Torture for Fun: Justified if no repercussions
Torture for Information: Acceptable
Treason: Capital Punishment
Tresspassing: Serious Punishment
Vandalism: Serious Punishment

Dark Dwarves would thus have a very strong distinction between "Self" and "Other".  Hurting the "Self" gets at least a serious punishment, while harming the "Other" is at worst regarded as something you engage in if no one's going to stop you.  Theft is a... funny issue.  On one hand, it would make sense with dark dwarven ethics to have them seriously punish stealing from other dark dwarves, but the Theft ethic determines whether the civ will send thieves to other civs and steal from them... which seems perfectly in character, taking from non-dark-dwarven settlements if they can.