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[Neonivek]

Ah... instant transmission pretty much explicitly breaks FTL, neo. LB's number crunching earlier notwithstanding, that's pretty direct.

Instant Transmission is travel without speed.

Hense why we don't say Nightcrawler can travel faster then the speed of light.

As well you have to seperate fly speed and fight speed as well.

[Sergius]

Ok, just wanted to say, Superman needing a suit to breathe in space is specifically a Timmverse limitation. He DOES need to breath in that "universe".

I think it's stated that they don't need oxygen in the comics, even somewhat recent comics like the one where there's some war between Earth and Nu-Krypton or something, and they kill a bunch of kryptonians by turning the Sun red. They suffocate, and Supes nearly buys the farm except he could hold it like 10 more seconds and they turn the Sun yellow again, and those that didn't die are again fine and dandy and dancing and prancing and rattling and... battling.

Anyway, yeah they're both OP. Goku is even more OP than Superman. So, the way I would have done this:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

-Goku shots "kamehamehaa" real loud, but actually kicks Superman's groin off while he's not looking. Superman then dies of embarrassment.
-The guilt from eliminating such a Shining Beacon of Freedom, Liberty, Virtue, Blueness, Redness and Yellowness and American Pie drives Goku to a huge depression, eventually dying of a self-inflicted Ki-aneurism.
-The Hitchhiker's Guide Mark II warps in with the help of the Vogon Deconstruction Fleet, and eliminates every instance of their existance from every other Universe and alternate realities.

(ok, probably not to be taken seriously, I guess...

Yeah, not that I hate superabsolutesupermegabigheroes or anything...

[LordBucket]

No did you hear them? They litterally said they wouldn't use that Superman specifically because he is so rediculous he could win. They arn't using All Star Superman.

They said they weren't using pre-1986 material. Allstar Superman was printed in 2005-2008.

Here's a screenshot from the video when they were calculating his strength:



That event is from this comic:
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/6/60228/1332307-944172_supermanliftingstrength2_super_super.jpg

Using that has a number of flaws above and beyond my previous objections about using source material that contradicts the popular depiction. First, it says right on there that he's not doing it alone. Green Lantern is helping.

Second...the physics is inapplicable. It's not like he's pushing that much weight against a fixed anchor point. He's pulling an object in space. You would need to know the acceleration involved to come to any conclusions. Even one pound of force would be sufficient to move the earth in those conditions. Saying that he moved an object in space that weighed X therefore he can apply X pounds of force doesn't work.

Third, it's very obvious from the picture that he's not punching or lifting to apply force. He's flying. He's using his telekinetic flight ability. Related, I would point out that the entire scenario of having Green Lantern make the huge grabber thing is silly and uneccesary. Superman routinely demonstrates inertialess contact telekinesis in a variety of his media, as described in this post. The grabber is not necessary. He would be able to get on the other side and push just as well. He does exactly that in the Smallville finale when he pushes planet Apokolips away from Earth. This is inertialess action. If it weren't, the force required to push a planet focused on an area the size of his hands would cause him to burrow through the surface instead of moving it. We see this time and time again when he moves planes, frozens lakes, planets, etc.

But when he fights...when he's having to actually push rather than use inertialess telekinetic flight, he's shown to have very different capabilities:

Here he is struggling against Doomsday:



Here's a clip from Superman 3 of him struggling to get out of a bubble then giving up and using heat vision instead:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lw79TG7cGs

Nobody is suggesting that Doomsday has quintillions of tons of lifting strength, or that the bubble in superman 3 had quintillions of tons of tensile strength. Time and time again Superman is shown to have very much less raw strength than his ability to move objects via inertialess telekinesis in flight.

[Neonivek]

Here's a screenshot from the video when they were calculating his strength

Keep going. They have a phrase immediately after that screenshot that adds more.

Second...the physics is inapplicable. It's not like he's pushing that much weight against a fixed anchor point

He has to move it against the earth's mass as well as against the natural movement of the earth itself. It is why if we shot all the nukes and explosives on earth on one side of the earth. We still couldn't move it.

In otherwords that 6.6 is the bare minimum to move it anywhere. So no matter how slow Superman was moving it, he was showing super strength of that number.

I would point out that the entire scenario of having Green Lantern make the huge grabber thing is silly and uneccesary

While Superman's invulnerbility aura is powerful enough to allow superman to lift things that should crumble around him. It does have its limits.

But when he fights...when he's having to actually push rather than use inertialess telekinetic flight, he's shown to have very different capabilities:

Here he is struggling against Doomsday

It is Doomsday. He is litterally as strong as Superman. Of COURSE he is going to have trouble.

Nobody is suggesting that Doomsday has quintillions of tons of lifting strength

Except he kinda does.

Time and time again Superman is shown to have very much less raw strength than his ability to move objects via inertialess telekinesis in flight

So Superman who tries as hard as he can not to kill someone doesn't throw punches as hard as he possibly can? Shocker!

But I see what you want. You want an Image of Superman Punching something and putting out the 6.6.

Though My job is a lot easier then proving Goku is that strong. Given that Goku is slower then the Speed of Light if I took the show seriously and he doesn't have invulnerbility to the elements.

Heck all Goku has is people doing false exclamations.

[LordBucket]

They have a phrase immediately after that screenshot that adds more.

Which part? There's more, but nothing that appears to materially alter what's being said.

In otherwords that 6.6 is the bare minimum to move it anywhere. So no matter how slow Superman was moving it, he was showing super strength of that number.

No. You're incorrect. Your physics is wrong. You're demonstrating a total common sense failure here.

Go outside right now. Put your car into neutral. Push it. You will be able to push it. Your car probably weighs a ton or two. Your ability to push it does not mean that you can apply a couple tons of force. That's not how it works.

Even you personally, provided with an absolute fixed relative point in space to push against...could move the planet earth.

[Neonivek]

They already factored that in Lord Bucket.

The force required for me to push a car in neutral is certainly not one-onethousandth of its mass (or in this case weight) it is in fact more.

As well remember the earth is an object in motion. While you could in theory lift a 100 ton boulder in zero gravity. If it was moving at you going 1 cm per second, it would be uttarly impossible.

[LordBucket]

The force required for me to push a car in neutral is certainly not one-onethousandth
of its mass (or in this case weight) it is in fact more.

No. Again, your physics is wrong. Any greater-than-zero force is sufficient to cause an acceleration to any less-than-infinite-mass object. There is a minimum requirement when pushing your car because of friction, which would not apply in the case of pulling a planet through space.

They arbitrarily divided by 1000 without understanding that the method they were using was not valid.

[DJ]

There is friction - gravity well of the Sun.

[Neonivek]

There is friction - gravity well of the Sun.

As well as the inertia of the earth

There is a minimum requirement when pushing your car because of friction

Friction, gravity, inertia, traction, material strength.

They arbitrarily divided by 1000 without understanding that the method they were using was not valid

I don't know, if you want me to do the calculations I can... it would probably end up being a lot more significant.

Which part? There's more, but nothing that appears to materially alter what's being said.

Where superman is holding up a press and the alien specifically says how much weight it is.

[LordBucket]

There is friction - gravity well of the Sun.

I don't think that would be relevant to this specific case.

inertia of the earth

Addressed many times. Superman obviously has the ability to alter the effective inertia of on object. Re-read the second half this post

if you want me to do the calculations I can

1) There's not enough data to do the calculations. You would need to know at a minimum the rate of acceleration, which was not provided.

2) As above, I've made a consistent case for the ability of Superman to cause inertialess motion. If he can eliminate or reduce inertia, as he obviosly must be able to do in order to do other things he's demonstrated, then the effective mass of earth during this feat is not what it would otherwise be.

3) Remember, he didn't do it alone. As shown in the comic image, Hal Jordon is explicity assisting in the feat. How do you, in your math, account for the assistance of an individual whose power allows him to do anything that he can imagine?

Where superman is holding up a press and the alien specifically says how much weight it is.

That's from Allstar Superman. The source, incidentally, that on page three of this thread you said they weren't using. Here's a scan from the comic

Allstar Superman is given an extreme powerup by Luthor that makes him immune to kryptonite and gives him a variety of other powers. He then spends an entire year living inside the sun.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-Star_Superman

"Dr. Leo Quintum and his team from P.R.O.J.E.C.T. are exploring the Sun when they are sabotaged by a Lex Luthor clone. Superman saves the day, but acquires the ability to project his bio-electric aura. Lex Luthor has orchestrated this to overwhelm Superman's cells with massive amounts of solar radiation. Quintum determines that Superman's new power is also killing him,"

"Superman and Lois embrace and he proclaims his love for her once and for all. He takes off, flies into the Sun and repairs it, saving the day for one last time. One year later, Lois still believes that Superman will return. Inside the sun, Superman, now a solar being, is making machinery within."

It's an exceptional case. The Superman from Allstar is not Superman. It's "superman after having been powered up by a unique plot macguffin."

[Neonivek]

There's not enough data to do the calculations. You would need to know at a minimum the rate of acceleration, which was not provided

Actually I really wouldn't.

It would at LEAST have to be enough energy to exceed Earth's inertia and its natural movement.

Meaning even at an accelleration of 0 there is an immense amount of energy being used.

Since to move the earth you have to at least stop it. Which is a constant force.

Plus he would also have to be stronger then the Earth's natural rotation.

In fact JUST to stop the earth from rotating around the sun this is what Superman would have to exert

21,952,980,000,000,000,000,000 pounds of force. Minimum.

Honestly give any lowball number of how fast Superman managed to move the earth and it is still MANYTIMES stronger then Goku.

That's from Allstar Superman.

Isn't that a comic book?

I am not talking about the comic book.

Superman obviously has the ability to alter the effective inertia of on object

He still has to actually stop the object in question though.

[LordBucket]

I think I'm wasting my time. You clearly have no idea what either of the two of us are talking about.

[Neonivek]

I think I'm wasting my time. You clearly have no idea what either of the two of us are talking about.

I do, but I am informing you that your complaint about the math that they used... absolutely doesn't matter because no matter what calculations you use for that feat and no matter how slow you make it... it puts Superman out of Goku's range.

Just being able to push against the gravitational accelleration the sun puts on the earth. As well as the earth's natural ability to rotate itself... is immense.

Remember Goku, with the exagerated measurements they created for him, was only able to lift a continent effectively (And the Goku in the anime couldn't do that even then, the exact multiplication to his abilities wasn't exactly the measures they give. Hense why Goku never crossed the light barrier).

That Cartoon they shown with the alien and the piston is the confirmation but I don't know why you didn't notice that.

Superman routinely demonstrates inertialess contact telekinesis in a variety of his media

That was an explanation that came later. Earlier it was called his Aura of Invulnerbility where he was able to extend his own invulnerbility to objects he was in contact with, which is a better way of understanding it.

He has a limitation however. Hense why he has often had to slow objects down instead of simply lifting them wholesale. Moving the entire earth while cool, is far outside Superman's ability to make it ignore its own structural integrity.

In fact the fact that he NEEDS a harness proves your statement about "Him negating the intertia of the earth" false as otherwise he could have done it by hand.

As for his punching strength

The Infinite mass punch is the key to that. Do you confirm Lord Bucket that he can INDEED pull off the Infinite Mass punch? and that he can move at 6 times the speed of light?

Because it is around now that Ill start to do the math and show you that Superman can indeed punch that hard.

Afterall SURE you say that is only his lifting strength. I will without even touching how much he can lift, prove he can punch that hard.

Though before then this is the specific explanation for the Infinite mass punch

"Infinite mass punch - Introduced in Grant Morrison's JLA title. Flash (Wally West), traveling near the speed of light acquired the relativistic mass of such speed to impart blows which could hit with the force of "a white dwarf star,""

By the by Superman cannot fake this.

(I keep doing the math but I get the math wrong everytime)

[Korbac]

ARGUEMENT SETTLER PROPOSED

"There's so many different depictions of Superman and so many 'levels' of Goku's power (it rises exponentially throughout the series) that depending on what source material one chooses, either outcome of the fight is reasonable."

I think this is fair.

[Neonivek]

ARGUEMENT SETTLER PROPOSED

"There's so many different depictions of Superman and so many 'levels' of Goku's power (it rises exponentially throughout the series) that depending on what source material one chooses, either outcome of the fight is reasonable."

I think this is fair.

No because right now Lord Bucket actually has no problem with Allstar Superman winning.

Lord Bucket wants to see if Superman only with the abilities and powers from the TVshows and Movies could win. Which because this is a friendly debate I have no issue with continuing. I mean, who would take this arguement seriously with hostility.

Also I finally found what I did wrong with my calculation of Superman's punch. I had to square a part of it. which unfortunately gets me such a fantastically high number it is insane. Lets just say that when Superman destroyed the earth at the end of the video... It really would have just by comming into contact with the earth while crossing from the Sun to the earth in a matter of seconds. Yeah moving the speed of light really changes things.

In fact if I am reading my numbers correctly Goku couldn't even withstand a blow moving at his top speeds (Bumping into an object moving the speed of light exerts more energy then Goku could withstand... Yet alone 2.2 times the speed of light). If Goku COULD move 2x the speed of light he certainly would never dare to try.

It is however that I have to find a source TVshow or movie of Superman managing to move the Speed of light. Which we only know he can go sublight because I am sure Lord Bucket is aware of the race Superman had with the Flash in the cartoon. (honestly Non-super overpowered Superman is always more interesting then super overpowered superman.)