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[Manveru Taurënér]

Fun is more important here, and smarter ogres are funner. Secondly, realism does not need to be lost for fun. So long as we take that there are magical laws working in conjunction with the real ones, which Toady can shape however he sees fit, it neither breaks the spirit of fantasy or realism, and the aim is to blend both.

Exactly ^^

[GreatWyrmGold]

Am I reading people argumenting that a single ogre that wrecks some shit in your fortress is much more !!FUN!! than having an entire band of ogres storm your fortress?

Nha, it's more people arguing over whether ogre behaviour should be dictated by fun or realism (think everyone agreed bands of ogres/etc sounded great unless too common).

Well, I've been arguing for realism because fun is a lot more subjective. It's hard to argue that Option X is a lot more fun. So I didn't. I've learned not to argue the unarguable.

Fun is subjective so lets make everything realistic even if it's super boring doesn't sound like very good design philosophy to me :>

Fun is more important here, and smarter ogres are funner. Secondly, realism does not need to be lost for fun. So long as we take that there are magical laws working in conjunction with the real ones, which Toady can shape however he sees fit, it neither breaks the spirit of fantasy or realism, and the aim is to blend both.

Agreed. However, I fail to see why my ideas would violate any of those ideals.

[Scoops Novel]

Am I reading people argumenting that a single ogre that wrecks some shit in your fortress is much more !!FUN!! than having an entire band of ogres storm your fortress?

Nha, it's more people arguing over whether ogre behaviour should be dictated by fun or realism (think everyone agreed bands of ogres/etc sounded great unless too common).

Well, I've been arguing for realism because fun is a lot more subjective. It's hard to argue that Option X is a lot more fun. So I didn't. I've learned not to argue the unarguable.

Fun is subjective so lets make everything realistic even if it's super boring doesn't sound like very good design philosophy to me :>

Fun is more important here, and smarter ogres are funner. Secondly, realism does not need to be lost for fun. So long as we take that there are magical laws working in conjunction with the real ones, which Toady can shape however he sees fit, it neither breaks the spirit of fantasy or realism, and the aim is to blend both.

Agreed. However, I fail to see why my ideas would violate any of those ideals.

SHUDDUP SHUDDUP SHUDDUP :p. (They don't.) 

[Naryar]

They're far too few in vanilla to form a civ.

However if we decide to up the numbers of semimegabeasts, why not ?

It would be also good if a small part of the SMB's were NOT angry, dwarf-killing monsters for once. Maybe even some would join your civ out of mutual interest. They are intelligent and can speak, after all.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Pretty much what I've been saying.

Even if they can't form civs on their own, they could join others' or join other monsters in bands of varying size.

[Cheedows]

Those are a lot of quote pyramids....I'l just give my opinion and back out of the heated debate slowly...

I'm just a noob, so pardon me if I have no knowledge on some aspects.  I'm not sure if this has been said before, but to me if Semi-megabeasts/megabeasts formed civilizations, then they would definitely survive the decades span given.   Its the quality that Humans/Animal people/Elves/Dwarves/Gobbos/Kobolds band together and form civlizations with nobles is what keeps us sane and out of anarchy.  We beat the beasts by numbers, not strength in most cases.  I would think Megabeasts/semi could have their own civilizations before world gen, then wipe each other out while the smaller/lesser beings (Humans/Animal people/Elves/Dwarves/Gobbos/Kobolds) rise up and start forming civilizations.  Or, have the lesser beings enslaved at first then eventually killing their masters only to be haunted by the remenants later on.  That would definitely make it more fun if you gen at year 5-10.

[Neonivek]

Fun is more important here, and smarter ogres are funner. Secondly, realism does not need to be lost for fun. So long as we take that there are magical laws working in conjunction with the real ones, which Toady can shape however he sees fit, it neither breaks the spirit of fantasy or realism, and the aim is to blend both.

Exactly ^^

If we want Semimegabeast quality monsters that work together we can add them.

We don't need to alter creatures to make them tougher.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Fun is more important here, and smarter ogres are funner. Secondly, realism does not need to be lost for fun. So long as we take that there are magical laws working in conjunction with the real ones, which Toady can shape however he sees fit, it neither breaks the spirit of fantasy or realism, and the aim is to blend both.

Exactly ^^

If we want Semimegabeast quality monsters that work together we can add them.

We don't need to alter creatures to make them tougher.

There is NO reason for semimegabeasts not to work together, though. And many reasons for them to do so.

[Neonivek]

Fun is more important here, and smarter ogres are funner. Secondly, realism does not need to be lost for fun. So long as we take that there are magical laws working in conjunction with the real ones, which Toady can shape however he sees fit, it neither breaks the spirit of fantasy or realism, and the aim is to blend both.

Exactly ^^

If we want Semimegabeast quality monsters that work together we can add them.

We don't need to alter creatures to make them tougher.

There is NO reason for semimegabeasts not to work together, though. And many reasons for them to do so.

Actually there is little reason for a Semimegabeast to work together according to how they are set up. They would want as little competition as possible and thus would chase away members of their own species.

This is because of their diet and metabolism.

Thus there is a biological instinct to be independent and to fight for independence within the semimegabeasts or a lack of instinct to work together, comming together only to mate and then part ways (if they reproduce at all).

These are fundemental aspects of their biology, not something you can simply write around because "Hey logically if a whole group of semimegabeasts fought together, they would be able to beat people up better" since that would be like saying "hey if Foxes were pack animals instead of pair and solitary they would be able to take down hunting dogs".

[GreatWyrmGold]

Fun is more important here, and smarter ogres are funner. Secondly, realism does not need to be lost for fun. So long as we take that there are magical laws working in conjunction with the real ones, which Toady can shape however he sees fit, it neither breaks the spirit of fantasy or realism, and the aim is to blend both.

Exactly ^^

If we want Semimegabeast quality monsters that work together we can add them.

We don't need to alter creatures to make them tougher.

There is NO reason for semimegabeasts not to work together, though. And many reasons for them to do so.

Actually there is little reason for a Semimegabeast to work together according to how they are set up. They would want as little competition as possible and thus would chase away members of their own species.

Prove it. You can't. There is currently no interaction between semi/megabeasts, because the game hasn't progressed to that point yet.

This is because of their diet and metabolism.
Thus there is a biological instinct to be independent and to fight for independence within the semimegabeasts or a lack of instinct to work together, comming together only to mate and then part ways (if they reproduce at all).
These are fundemental aspects of their biology, not something you can simply write around because "Hey logically if a whole group of semimegabeasts fought together, they would be able to beat people up better" since that would be like saying "hey if Foxes were pack animals instead of pair and solitary they would be able to take down hunting dogs".

Oh? Big omnivores can't get along with each other? Funny thing, that's malarkey. Bigger animals with more limited diets work together IRL (Extreme example: Blue whales), and they aren't smart enough to practice the food production that allows humans' levels of population density. And blue whales lack the kinds of motivations for defense against adventurers that semi/megabeasts do. And that's not getting into tribute...

[Neonivek]

Prove it. You can't.

If I cannot prove it, then you cannot prove the contrary either.

Oh? Big omnivores can't get along with each other? Funny thing, that's malarkey. Bigger animals with more limited diets work together IRL (Extreme example: Blue whales), and they aren't smart enough to practice the food production that allows humans' levels of population density. And blue whales lack the kinds of motivations for defense against adventurers that semi/megabeasts do. And that's not getting into tribute..

Ahh yes I've been waiting for you to mention that. You see both Elephants and Whales have ways of conserving energy with slow lumbering movements and eat things that, generally speaking, do not need to be chased down.

Both of these are NOT within the perview of any of the Semimegabeasts available. In fact many of them have exclusive meat based diets.

[Scoops Novel]

Neonivek, it seems likely they'll be developed in the future, along with everyone else with the personality rewrite at the least. Neonivek, why is it better for them to be solitary, easily mobbed creatures with no culture of their own beyond mating?

[GreatWyrmGold]

Prove it. You can't.

If I cannot prove it, then you cannot prove the contrary either.

Then don't use it as an argument if it can't be proved either way.

Oh? Big omnivores can't get along with each other? Funny thing, that's malarkey. Bigger animals with more limited diets work together IRL (Extreme example: Blue whales), and they aren't smart enough to practice the food production that allows humans' levels of population density. And blue whales lack the kinds of motivations for defense against adventurers that semi/megabeasts do. And that's not getting into tribute..

Ahh yes I've been waiting for you to mention that. You see both Elephants and Whales have ways of conserving energy with slow lumbering movements and eat things that, generally speaking, do not need to be chased down.

And what makes you think that giants, dragons, et cetera don't have those "ways" as well?

Both of these are NOT within the perview of any of the Semimegabeasts available. In fact many of them have exclusive meat based diets.

No, they don't. Every semimegabeast is probably an omnivore. MEGAbeasts, you might have a point with...but A. many of them can "slumber" in myths (notably dragons), B. tribute, and C. megabeasts usually aren't sufficiently sentient to form groups, like the semimegs are.

And, seriously, you haven't addressed "Tribute" yet.

[Neonivek]

Neonivek, it seems likely they'll be developed in the future, along with everyone else with the personality rewrite at the least. Neonivek, why is it better for them to be solitary, easily mobbed creatures with no culture opf their own beyond mating?

My statement is certainly not of current status of the game. It is of the creatures in question who in mythology were often alone.

Why is it better for an easily mobbed creature to be solitary? because they are solitary.

And what makes you think that giants, dragons, et cetera don't have those "ways" as well?

Because the game has yet to add Airkrill and it doesn't handle territory and there is nothing about territory (for creatures) in the Devs.

seriously, you haven't addressed "Tribute" yet.

Because Semimegabeasts even working together are not a fathomable force to even threaten anything other then a small village that is isolated by its uncaring populous. Tribute would be something they could only enforce on communities that could not support multiple semimegabeasts.

Megabeasts however need a serious upgrade.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Neonivek, it seems likely they'll be developed in the future, along with everyone else with the personality rewrite at the least. Neonivek, why is it better for them to be solitary, easily mobbed creatures with no culture opf their own beyond mating?

My statement is certainly not of current status of the game. It is of the creatures in question who in mythology were often alone.
Why is it better for an easily mobbed creature to be solitary? because they are solitary.

Not all were...but let's also bear in mind that many of the mythological creatures in question were also unique, and therefore didn't have much choice in their solitude.

And what makes you think that giants, dragons, et cetera don't have those "ways" as well?

Because the game has yet to add Airkrill and it doesn't handle territory and there is nothing about territory (for creatures) in the Devs.

1. Oh ha ha. Guess what? There's a lot to eat that isn't krill.
2. Hardly relevant. We're not talking about 0.34.11 here.
3. There's a lot being added that isn't explicitly in the devlogs, and I'd imagine territory for animals would go into general improvements of animal behavior.

seriously, you haven't addressed "Tribute" yet.

Because Semimegabeasts even working together are not a fathomable force to even threaten anything other then a small village that is isolated by its uncaring populous. Tribute would be something they could only enforce on communities that could not support multiple semimegabeasts.

Hm. Interesting theory...but wrong. How could a few thousand townspeople defeat three or four giants, without at a minimum massive damage to their town? Can minotaurs' size and the weapons they are supposed to have not let them strike with the force of a small army when in groups? Is there anythign stopping them from bullying lesser races to form their own (small, possibly mere crossbow fodder) armies?