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[10ebbor10]

Toady talks about it in some of the DF talks. Basically, there's 3 groups of players:

-Simulationists: Want to have the game as "realistic" as possible
-Game-ists: Put gameplay above realism
-Builders: Those who come up with the giant marvellous megaprojects.

It's hard to strike a balance, but I don't think this will really "benefit" any of these groups.

[Farmerbob]

Toady talks about it in some of the DF talks. Basically, there's 3 groups of players:

-Simulationists: Want to have the game as "realistic" as possible
-Game-ists: Put gameplay above realism
-Builders: Those who come up with the giant marvellous megaprojects.

It's hard to strike a balance, but I don't think this will really "benefit" any of these groups.

It won't benefit "any" of them, it would benefit ALL of them.  Easter eggs in indy games are a way that indy games create links to each other that players can follow.  Indy games certainly benefit from this, but DF does not participate in it that I'm aware of.  I do not believe that diggles in the game will have any impact on DF itself, provided that they don't bring in silly abilities that no other creatures have.  However if Toady chooses to be hypersensitive to intellectual property even if he's given permission to easter egg another game, that's HIS choice to make.  I will say that DF and Toady have a GREAT deal of respect in the indy games community.  The chances of an indy developer giving Toady any sort of a hard time about usage rights if Toady gets permission from them to use something of theirs in an agreed-upon manner as an Easter egg is not even quantifiable - the indy community would shut that noise down so fast it wouldn't even be funny - and the indy devs out there know it.

If actually adding a creature to the game that comes from another game is something that Toady simply doesn't want to do, there are a couple fairly other simple (seeming) options that would serve as Easter eggs as well.

Maybe plant diggles and other possible future references into the decoration system so dwarves can create artifacts and engravings with images of diggles on them, even if they never appear in the game as creatures.  Perhaps allow them to appear occasionally in the world history but never in the actual game.  Finally, they might be added to the database that dwarven preferences for animals, allowing us to have dwarves who like diggles for their amazing nasal appliances.

Easter egging need not impact primary gameplay at all.

*shrug*

I'm done here and will just bring up this thread with my next donation to make sure Toady considers it, rather than asking for a crayon drawing.  Or maybe I'll ask for a crayon drawing of a diggle, lol.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I tried to think of a subtle way of doing that...

Dread and Moor

But Moor's definition doesn't fit something that could be used.

The Dread Moor sounds like a scary place.


Anyways, I'm not sure that providing a "link" to another game would, actually, benefit any of those three groups. Let's assume that they all instantly recognized the Diggle as being from Dungeons of Dredmor and wanted to look at it.
Simulationists--Nope. DoD isn't a simulation.
Gamers--Probably nope. DF might be classified as a roguelike for its graphics, but the games really aren't that much alike.
Builders--Don't make me laugh. There's no building in DoD.
So...none of the three main groups of DF players can be assumed to be inclined towards playing Dungeons of Dredmor. They just lose time and wonder why the heck Toady added such a crazy critter to DF.

[dwarfhoplite]

He was talking about DF community, not about Dod community.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Ah.
...How does adding something to DF make people who don't play DF hear about it?

[GoombaGeek]

Of course, the DF fanbase can't play any other games that differ from DF in the slightest.

[Neonivek]

Of course, the DF fanbase can't play any other games that differ from DF in the slightest.

Definately not, that is why we need Cameos. Well ok, they do play other games.

[GoombaGeek]

Of course, the DF fanbase can't play any other games that differ from DF in the slightest.

Definately not, that is why we need Cameos. Well ok, they do play other games.

No! Only games that are exactly like Dwarf Fortress can be played by us, as we can never go back. A game that is not Dwarf Fortress must never be played by us.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Of course, the DF fanbase can't play any other games that differ from DF in the slightest.

No, but you can't assume they'd like DoD.

Of course, the DF fanbase can't play any other games that differ from DF in the slightest.

Definately not, that is why we need Cameos. Well ok, they do play other games.

No! Only games that are exactly like Dwarf Fortress can be played by us, as we can never go back. A game that is not Dwarf Fortress must never be played by us.

*hides Steam icon on desktop*

[Capntastic]

Toady talks about it in some of the DF talks. Basically, there's 3 groups of players:

-Simulationists: Want to have the game as "realistic" as possible
-Game-ists: Put gameplay above realism
-Builders: Those who come up with the giant marvellous megaprojects.

It's hard to strike a balance, but I don't think this will really "benefit" any of these groups.

That was actually my musing based on the original Bartle Test gamer classifications, tuned to DF specifically and modified by what sorts of things the community factions seem to desire most.  That doesn't mean that Toady should only do things to appease those groups, it's more about how certain aspects of development will enthrall some people while bore others to tears (like how DF is mocked by some for having soil simulations, etc, that don't directly "improve" the ability to play the game).

[Destyvirago]

I think if implemented correctly that Diggels can add to the game. I agree that just putting them in as they are with the same name might be a bit too blatant. What if Toady where to give them an original name, like rockbirds or tunnelbirds, but when inspected it would say in at the end of their description "Dwarfs sometimes call these strange birdlike creatures Diggels". Then you put them in without making it too obvious, and that is how DoD do their DF shoutouts.

As for the Diggels them-selfs if implemented correctly could fill an interesting spot. What if they where an tunneling creature that lived in small caves about 1-3z levels below surface. There they would have a few nesting spots and they would live in small colonies of 4-8 birds. The caves may or not be connected to the surface as the Diggels could tunnel up in small tunnels too small for Dwarfs, kind of like an entrance to a mole den. I would imagine that wild Diggels would not be very aggressive, or very threatening, but if a dwarf where to tunnel into their cave they would attack. but not pursue very far.

This would be a good time for a new dwarf settlement to start a military. I would make them no more dangerous than that 1-2 Dwarfs with leather armor and little weapon skill should be able to clean out a nest without taking too much damage. They would kind of be an entry level treat to start up a military on, but not one that could wipe out your settlement.

This is just an idea of how they could be included in the game and still add interesting content. Please feel free to say what you think.

(sorry for bad grammar, not a native english speaker)

[Neonivek]

What if Toady where to give them an original name, like rockbirds or tunnelbirds, but when inspected it would say in at the end of their description

Because the Diggles arn't anything. What ARE they?

No one here knows

[Capntastic]

There's a lot of things Toady could add to the game that "wouldn't be too disruptive", and again, if that's the way you need to phrase it, why even spend the time to add Diggles at all?

No one's made an actual case for why Diggles should be taken from a different game and added to DF, beyond "it would be funny" and "they referenced DF in trivial ways so we should ask to borrow their original mascot to put in DF".

I've pointed out multiple times that if Toady's going to allow cameos for every game that namechecks DF, it quickly becomes incentivized for every random game out there to try to get free advertisement.  I've pointed out that the game is Toady's baby and he wants to strike a fine balance between classic fantasy ideals and original stuff his brother and him have created.  I've pointed out that adding things from other games (moogles, ash vampires, pokemon) would quickly break the simulation and immersion the game aims for (especially when Dredmor itself is specifically a game that makes fun of fantasy game concepts).

I've made several arguments for why adding things from other games is generally a bad idea and yet people keep ignoring them because they really really really want diggles oh my god diggles wow diggles woah diggles.

[Farmerbob]

There's a lot of things Toady could add to the game that "wouldn't be too disruptive", and again, if that's the way you need to phrase it, why even spend the time to add Diggles at all?

No one's made an actual case for why Diggles should be taken from a different game and added to DF, beyond "it would be funny" and "they referenced DF in trivial ways so we should ask to borrow their original mascot to put in DF".

I've pointed out multiple times that if Toady's going to allow cameos for every game that namechecks DF, it quickly becomes incentivized for every random game out there to try to get free advertisement.  I've pointed out that the game is Toady's baby and he wants to strike a fine balance between classic fantasy ideals and original stuff his brother and him have created.  I've pointed out that adding things from other games (moogles, ash vampires, pokemon) would quickly break the simulation and immersion the game aims for (especially when Dredmor itself is specifically a game that makes fun of fantasy game concepts).

I've made several arguments for why adding things from other games is generally a bad idea and yet people keep ignoring them because they really really really want diggles oh my god diggles wow diggles woah diggles.

I love being completely mischaracterized by someone who refuses to actually read what has been said, who then creates a dozen strawman arguments.

I have also said that there are other ways besides adding the creatures themselves into the game that might be doable.  This was, of course ignored, because it would get in the way of the strawman arguments.