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[GreatWyrmGold]

What do Diggles do?

1 slashing and 2 piercing damage.

...So, they're basically boring, average, underdefined mooks?

They are subterranean, burrowing reasonably intelligent, social birdthings.  Basically they are Dredmor's kobold or goblin race.  Some of them are mooks, some of them are really powerful, but in DF they should probably be almost exclusively mooks except for when they get corralled into doing demon-duty.  I'm not suggesting they be made a big part of DF, because that wouldn't make sense.  Just a critter that you might see now and then when you breach caverns.

Alright then. Some knowledge of behavior and diet would be nice, though.

What do Diggles do?

1 slashing and 2 piercing damage.

...So, they're basically boring, average, underdefined mooks?

Yes, and as such they don't have enough lore and character to be added as a subterranean random encounter, unlike such fascinating creatures as the Flesh Ball and the Giant Toad. After all, the criterion that determines inclusion of creatures is "underdefinition".

They are just another animal to add to the game! Why do they need some sort of gimmick?

The difference is that we actually know what giant toads and the like eat. Creatures don't exist to deal damageto dwarves, you know

[Sirus]

I'd be fine with adding diggles. Just another cave-dwelling critter, perhaps unique to evil regions (since they are minions for an evil sorcerer in DoD). It's not like we don't already have bizarre and impossible fictional creatures in DF.

[Capntastic]

We need chocobos and digimon too

[Sirus]

We need chocobos and digimon too

How is that patting the back of a fellow indie developer?

Besides, aren't there hundreds of digimon? That would require a major modding project.

[Farmerbob]

We need chocobos and digimon too

Heh, Captn, have you played the Dungeons of Dredmor game?

It's a bit less than $3 on steam right now if you don't own it, for the game and all the expansions.

If you play it for 15 minutes and don't see a dozen references to DF I'll be amazed, and they will probably not be the same dozen or so I saw.

Gaslamp made their own, original game, absolutely nothing like Dwarf Fortress, and they have filled it with huge numbers of awesome easter-eggs from popular culture as well as other games, but if you look carefully you see a LOT of DF-inspired easter eggs -it's very easy to see that they are DF fans.

I'm not saying that Toady NEEDS to do this, I'm wanting to make sure that Toady has an OPPORTUNITY to do this if he so chooses.

[Bloax]

You guys are acting like Beavers or Weasels add a lot to the game. It's just another critter, and a reference to a game apparently full of DF references.
What's the big idea.

[Robosaur]

actually I think it's just one guy acting like it's a big deal.

[GoombaGeek]

actually I think it's just one guy acting like it's a big deal.

Guys, diggles are so unrealistic! They also add no major content to the game! How can anyone suggest something with little impact on the game?!

But, I think they should be tameable for their eggs (remember, they are not always hostile). And they should have a "drill" attack using their drill-noses.

[Capntastic]

We need chocobos and digimon too

Heh, Captn, have you played the Dungeons of Dredmor game?

Yes, I have, It's a good game and I'm still not sure what your point is.  World of Warcraft and dozens, if not hundreds of other games have referenced DF at varying levels of obliqueness.  There's no real reason why Toady should try to "return the favor" by adding their mascots or whatever to DF.  Dredmor is also specifically a more comedic game in tone.  DF is an entirely different beast in terms of texture and scope, and what's more, prides itself on being simultaneously free from any specific intellectual property, while also having a wealth of original content.

Even if Gaslamp gave the a-okay to slot Diggles into DF, it would still be dumb to do so, in the same way it would be dumb to slot in moogles, Pikachu, Companion Cubes, ash vampires, goombas, or anything else that is specifically from another game.  It breaks immersion, which is pretty much the main thing DF strives to create.

[Farmerbob]

We need chocobos and digimon too

Heh, Captn, have you played the Dungeons of Dredmor game?

Yes, I have, It's a good game and I'm still not sure what your point is.  World of Warcraft and dozens, if not hundreds of other games have referenced DF at varying levels of obliqueness.  There's no real reason why Toady should try to "return the favor" by adding their mascots or whatever to DF.  Dredmor is also specifically a more comedic game in tone.  DF is an entirely different beast in terms of texture and scope, and what's more, prides itself on being simultaneously free from any specific intellectual property, while also having a wealth of original content.

Even if Gaslamp gave the a-okay to slot Diggles into DF, it would still be dumb to do so, in the same way it would be dumb to slot in moogles, Pikachu, Companion Cubes, ash vampires, goombas, or anything else that is specifically from another game.  It breaks immersion, which is pretty much the main thing DF strives to create.

Hrm, I'm not quite sure I agree with you that the whole purpose of the game is immersion, I'd say that the whole purpose of the game is to have fun.  I cannot see any possibility of head-nods to other indy games being detrimental to DF, provided that they actually fit in the game, respect the other game, and aren't brightly spotlighted.  If you were to add, say, Superman to the game, ya, that would be broken.  But if you simply add a bird with a special name to the game, without giving it any special abilities or whatever, it isn't going to hurt Dwarf Fortress.

Part of the reason why most indy devs easter egg things is because it is funny, and adds another level to the game where players look for easter eggs.  But there's a practical side too.  Easter Egging helps to broaden the indy game market by helping to direct players to additional indy game offerings.  Let's face it, MOST indy game players don't just play one game, we tend to flit from game to game.  Just look at our own forums here in the "other games" section to see proof of this.

Limiting the back-scratching to other indy games is also a good idea, because many of us play indy games because we really don't like big-name themepark games, and referencing them is a turnoff.  There would be nothing inherently "wrong" with adding chocobos to DF as a large, rideable bird, but there are a great many of us that would be turned off by such an addition because of our dislike for the Final Fantasy franchise.

That being said, you can't satisfy everyone.  You apparently play DF for immersion.  I play to have fun.  I'm not quite sure where these two things conflict, but they must, because you seem to believe adding a bird with an odd name would break the game for you, but it would only add a smile or two now and then to my gameplay experience.

[Neonivek]

I'd say that the whole purpose of the game is to have fun.

That is always to be expected but remember that "fun" comes from many sources.

Emmersion is one of them. If the world is broken then it takes you out of the game and it stops being "as fun" so to speak.

I am actually fine with Diggles but judging by the fact that they don't actually live in any capacity other then to be an enemy with hp, defense, and attack values they clearly don't belong in dwarf fortress.

[Farmerbob]

I'd say that the whole purpose of the game is to have fun.

That is always to be expected but remember that "fun" comes from many sources.

Emmersion is one of them. If the world is broken then it takes you out of the game and it stops being "as fun" so to speak.

I am actually fine with Diggles but judging by the fact that they don't actually live in any capacity other then to be an enemy with hp, defense, and attack values they clearly don't belong in dwarf fortress.

How does adding a fantasy bird from someone else's imagination to a game any different from adding a fantasy bird from your own imagination, or from folklore?

Toady didn't invent dwarves, elves, trolls, nor goblins, or rocs, or dragons.  I do believe he might have invented crundles and rutherers as creatures, however.  (Read up on what a crundle is.  Toady has an evil, evil sense of humor.) He's not restricting himself to only things that he himself created.  He's already borrowing from existing gaming culture, but he is doing so very  conservatively.

What does any animal in DF actually offer beyond being pets, being targets for dwarven military or hunters, mounts for enemies, and raw materials for various crafts?

[Neonivek]

How does adding a fantasy bird from someone else's imagination to a game any different from adding a fantasy bird from your own imagination, or from folklore?

Dragons they are intelligent and hoarding. They eat lifestock, people, or rather anything made of meat.

Diggles they are... uhhh... we don't know. They have no personality, no purpose, no diet, no nothing. They are nothing.

Diggle is nothing.

Also it isn't like Toady doesn't have Cameos. He does have a Jabberwocky. Yet that is a much more developed creature then the Diggle.

The Diggles' major problem is that they are essentially nothing and there isn't enough to even guess upon these things, nor are they mythical. They are a mascot character there to add personality to a game. They arn't the personality of Dwarf Fortress but they don't have enough going for them to make a sensible contribution.

Especially remember that Dredmor is a comedy and Dwarf Fortress is not. Dredmor is allowed to make nonsense creatures, items, and plotlines without hurting the narrative and flow of the game. Dwarf Fortress cannot.

[Farmerbob]

How does adding a fantasy bird from someone else's imagination to a game any different from adding a fantasy bird from your own imagination, or from folklore?

Dragons they are intelligent and hoarding. They eat lifestock, people, or rather anything made of meat.

Diggles they are... uhhh... we don't know. They have no personality, no purpose, no diet, no nothing.

Diggles are intelligent, and social.  They lay eggs.  They live underground.  For Toady to put them in the game, he needs more details than are commonly available, however if Gaslight Games isn't terribly concerned about defining the minutae of Diggles, I don't think they would object to Toady imply making things up.  It's an easter egg, not a Mutual of Omaha Wild Kingdom episode about Diggles.

Getting permission would probably be a good thing, because Gaslamp actually markets diggles, and in that process I'm sure there would be opportunities to see if any questions about diggles can be answered.

[Neonivek]

Diggles are intelligent, and social.  They lay eggs.  They live underground

What are their temperment?

"if Gaslight Games isn't terribly concerned about defining the minutae of Diggles, I don't think they would object to Toady imply making things up"

If they are ill defined then they are a terrible inclusion.

They arn't the Jabberwocks where they were intentionally ill defined so that they could be anything.

They are ill defined because they are a standard RPG monster. Heck they seem like a reference to the Prinny given their appearance and general stature.

In order to fit in the game the Diggles need to be defined, they need to fit within the game and the context of the world. In a mod that is easier but this is the base game. Remember the Diggles do not work the way the game defines as well (which is intentional) meaning that to function you also have to redefine the diggles and alter them.