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[GoombaGeek]

Be careful about complaining about that sort of thing, or someone might just explain that it's not as bad as TvTropes, and explain why THAT'S so bad by linking another web comic.

Edit: Come to think of it, This would be a better TvTropes link more fitting to the situation, and this was a pretty jerk thing to do.

I'm immune to TVtropes once I left, came back six months later and realized how much it failed to do anything readable. I was really reading it to desperately fill that void in my soul left by people not endlessly copying out how cool [x] event in [y] was or leaving open links everywhere, not for the content or anything. Then I hopped on the Wayback Machine and checked out Troper Tales and I'm never reading anything produced by that wretched hive ever again, because it ranged from the idiotically pretentious to the full-out insane punctuated by * sexynareto2003 hugs u omg that must have been so hard 4 u but lucky u said u could use katansa to defend yoursilf now GOOD LUCK at ur new jeunier high..

[GreatWyrmGold]

Yeah, there's a reason they took Troper Tales out. Sad, I made some pretty decent ones.

Oh, and Neonivek: There's a better analogy than "the laws of physics in our world." Imagine when Pizarro invaded the Inca Empire. They had horses, strange beasts who obeyed their commands; steel armor, shiny and repelling the (copper at best) weapons of the Incas; steel swords, which were capable of slicing right through the available armor (mostly leather and cloth); and guns, which have obvious psychological effects on pre-Renaissance peoples. The Incas probably saw them as magic, but the Spaniards saw them as everyday.

[Neonivek]

I wanted to stay away from the technology analogy GreatWyrmGold because what Elves do is odd to us as a society and arn't using technology.

I was trying to explain how something that to us can seem like magic, could just be an ordinary everyday thing to Elves.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I wanted to stay away from the technology analogy GreatWyrmGold because what Elves do is odd to us as a society and arn't using technology.
I was trying to explain how something that to us can seem like magic, could just be an ordinary everyday thing to Elves.

The techhnology analogy is perfectly apt.
"Oh, my, what is this strange device which speaks, listens, and replies?" "It's called a walkie-talkie."
"Wow, how can you make such excellent wooden goods? It's like the tree was grown to form a sword." "It was."

[Aerie]

Personally, I like Dwarf Fortress without everything being made out of magic.

[GoombaGeek]

I wanted to stay away from the technology analogy GreatWyrmGold because what Elves do is odd to us as a society and arn't using technology.
I was trying to explain how something that to us can seem like magic, could just be an ordinary everyday thing to Elves.

The techhnology analogy is perfectly apt.
"Oh, my, what is this strange device which speaks, listens, and replies?" "It's called a walkie-talkie."
"Wow, how can you make such excellent wooden goods? It's like the tree was grown to form a sword." "It was."

Perfectly so.
"How is it made?"
"Well, first you slice the silicon boules into wafers, then punch out the chips and mount them, then make sure you have a constant operating voltage of 9V from a portable miniature pile like this one, then hook up a microphone and a receiver and a transmitter and make sure they're wrapped around something tall and metallic to intercept incoming radio waves, and you'll need some other circuitry as well but I've forgotten the basics."

"How is it made?"
"You do a little dance around the sapling ere the Autumn Equinox and the tree starts dropping wooden swords everywhere by the Solstice. Stop asking me about it."

[GreatWyrmGold]

Personally, I like Dwarf Fortress without everything being made out of magic.

...How is elven-imported wood "everything"?

I wanted to stay away from the technology analogy GreatWyrmGold because what Elves do is odd to us as a society and arn't using technology.
I was trying to explain how something that to us can seem like magic, could just be an ordinary everyday thing to Elves.

The techhnology analogy is perfectly apt.
"Oh, my, what is this strange device which speaks, listens, and replies?" "It's called a walkie-talkie."
"Wow, how can you make such excellent wooden goods? It's like the tree was grown to form a sword." "It was."

Perfectly so.
"How is it made?"
"Well, first you slice the silicon boules into wafers, then punch out the chips and mount them, then make sure you have a constant operating voltage of 9V from a portable miniature pile like this one, then hook up a microphone and a receiver and a transmitter and make sure they're wrapped around something tall and metallic to intercept incoming radio waves, and you'll need some other circuitry as well but I've forgotten the basics."

"How is it made?"
"You do a little dance around the sapling ere the Autumn Equinox and the tree starts dropping wooden swords everywhere by the Solstice. Stop asking me about it."

1. You're assuming that a random guy with a walkie-talkie actually knows how said walkie-talkie works.
2. Another problem: Elves, being stereotypically distrustful of other races, would be unlikely to share their secrets with other races in the first place. Comprehension has nothing to do with it.
3. Elven magic presumably functions on principles that don't work on nonmagical worlds, because...well, it's kinda implied by "magic."
4. Clarke's Third Law. (Also Heterodyne's First Law.) If you don't understand it, it's magic. If you do, it's not.

[Neonivek]

Elven "magic" works because in the DF universe trees are inherantly alive and semi-sentient. They can move but do not do so. The Elves however can speak with them because they have the prime language of nature which is an inborn trait.

In otherwords the reason Elves can get trees to give up its own wood is the same reason why we can get a dog to sit.

That is why an Elf wouldn't even think it is magic. It falls perfectly in line with how the world works.

"Why do you have to walk around in a circle and dance and sing to the trees"

Elf: "Because we are appeasing the tree, giving our gifts of dance and song so it may give us the gift of its very flesh"

"But why when I do that it doesn't work?"

Elf: "Because we can speak to the trees in a language they can understand"

"Why"

Elf: "Because we are born with the primal tongue of nature"

"Why?"

Elf: "We are connected closely to nature and as its guardians our race is born with the ability to communicate it as well as a treaty with all nature. It is sowed in our very existance."

"Why?"

Elf: "Because magic... Now why is your skull made out of bone?"

"Magic, what else? Biology hasn't been invented yet"

[GoombaGeek]

1. You're assuming that a random guy with a walkie-talkie actually knows how said walkie-talkie works.
2. Another problem: Elves, being stereotypically distrustful of other races, would be unlikely to share their secrets with other races in the first place. Comprehension has nothing to do with it.
3. Elven magic presumably functions on principles that don't work on nonmagical worlds, because...well, it's kinda implied by "magic."
4. Clarke's Third Law. (Also Heterodyne's First Law.) If you don't understand it, it's magic. If you do, it's not.

1. I know! What is with these examples that don't cover absolutely every possible scenario? It's shameful. Here it is fixed.
"How does it work?"
"It [utilizes a technology, assuming the speaker understands said technology of course] to [perform a function, assuming the speaker understands said function of course] so I can [utilize the device for something, assuming the speaker understands said utility of course]."
2. I know! What is with these examples that don't cover absolutely every possible scenario? Here is the way it should have gone.
"How does it work?"
"Fuck you! I'm an elf! You think that hypothetical elves should explain things just because they're in hypothetical examples? I spit on you! Realism! *ptoo*"
3. Yes! That is why you did not compare it to technology and say that the comparison is "perfectly apt", because it is magic and not technology. ohwait
4. Oooh, links and laws, my favorite way to win an argument. Just remember Young's Law of Scientific Extrapolation and this reply will make sense to you. On a non-sarcastic note, many if not most works state that magic has a defined system that is understood by its users, but its results are focused through the intention of the user and are usually based on the direct manipulation of magic "fields" with few steps in between. This makes it different than our technology (because we do not have intention-based powers).

Now then, let's take a step back.

The original point of the thread: Elves can identify their own wooden goods so that trade is easier.
The painful interruption: "Omg guys, we need to extend this magic wood system because mentioning magic is giving me wood, I think that instead of changing the name of the suggestion to something like 'marked wood' we should engage in a long, rambling discussion about magic, technology and 'not going far enough' because there can be no small simple suggestions here."
The result: This crap instead of actually talking about the ramifications of the suggestion as the first poster interpreted it; i.e. making trade easier and leading to improved relations with the elves.

Stop saying that suggestions "aren't extensive enough" and bringing your own painful extensions into simple threads that aren't about the things you like to talk about.

[GreatWyrmGold]

-snip-

You seem to be making a lot of assumptions. I'll pretend for a moment that magic really does work like that, because it might have been covered in a ThreeToe story.
What makes you think that elves don't have any idea how their magic works? We humans tried to figure out how our "magic" works, didn't we?

1. You're assuming that a random guy with a walkie-talkie actually knows how said walkie-talkie works.
2. Another problem: Elves, being stereotypically distrustful of other races, would be unlikely to share their secrets with other races in the first place. Comprehension has nothing to do with it.
3. Elven magic presumably functions on principles that don't work on nonmagical worlds, because...well, it's kinda implied by "magic."
4. Clarke's Third Law. (Also Heterodyne's First Law.) If you don't understand it, it's magic. If you do, it's not.

1. I know! What is with these examples that don't cover absolutely every possible scenario? It's shameful.

Um, most people don't understand how walkie-talkies work. Or computers. A lot of people probably don't even know how cars work. Ignorance? Noe that is shameful.

Here it is fixed.
"How does it work?"
"It [utilizes a technology, assuming the speaker understands said technology of course] to [perform a function, assuming the speaker understands said function of course] so I can [utilize the device for something, assuming the speaker understands said utility of course]."

Problem is, that's still the same idea. The general point is, those not versed in the ideas of a culture find their more advanced developments to seem magical.

2. I know! What is with these examples that don't cover absolutely every possible scenario? Here is the way it should have gone.
"How does it work?"
"Fuck you! I'm an elf! You think that hypothetical elves should explain things just because they're in hypothetical examples? I spit on you! Realism! *ptoo*"

...
It's still more like...oh, brother. Look, elves don't divulge their secrets, and even if they did dwarves wouldn't have a clue what they were talking about. Just like the elves wouldn't understand a RL!human's explanation of a computer.

3. Yes! That is why you did not compare it to technology and say that the comparison is "perfectly apt", because it is magic and not technology. ohwait

It's an analogy, for goodness's sake! It doesn't have to cover every single thing!

4. Oooh, links and laws, my favorite way to win an argument.

In this case, Clarke's Third Law is perfectly germane.

Just remember Young's Law of Scientific Extrapolation and this reply will make sense to you.

Google-Fu does not indicate that law's existence. Link?

On a non-sarcastic note,

Well, there goes a minute and a half.

many if not most works state that magic has a defined system that is understood by its users, but its results are focused through the intention of the user and are usually based on the direct manipulation of magic "fields" with few steps in between. This makes it different than our technology (because we do not have intention-based powers).

The general idea is, if you don't understand something it's magic. If you don't, it's science.,

Now then, let's take a step back.
The original point of the thread: Elves can identify their own wooden goods so that trade is easier.
The painful interruption: "Omg guys, we need to extend this magic wood system because mentioning magic is giving me wood, I think that instead of changing the name of the suggestion to something like 'marked wood' we should engage in a long, rambling discussion about magic, technology and 'not going far enough' because there can be no small simple suggestions here."
The result: This crap instead of actually talking about the ramifications of the suggestion as the first poster interpreted it; i.e. making trade easier and leading to improved relations with the elves.

Stop saying that suggestions "aren't extensive enough" and bringing your own painful extensions into simple threads that aren't about the things you like to talk about.

But it does deserve more. No suggestion should be forbidden from being expanded in a perfectly logical way.

[GoombaGeek]

But it does deserve more. No suggestion should be forbidden from being expanded in a perfectly logical way.

Original: "Let's make elves give out a kind of wood that they can identify, so we can trade it back to them."
You: "MAGIC WOOD OMG MAGIC LET'S GET INTO WHAT MAGIC IS AND WHY IT IS ALSO TECHNOLOGY"

No, you just really like talking about certain topics and that's why we're talking about goddamn magic as an entire expansive system for the hundredth time instead of talking about the actual suggestion. This is not the "perfectly logical magic" thread, this is the thread for elves giving out some kind of wood they can identify. It is not trying to explain why or how it is identifiable or what the racial elven belief is on magic. It doesn't even magic the magical magic. Nor magic it magic magic or magic. Magic.

[Neonivek]

Well enchanting wood is definately magic.

[GreatWyrmGold]

But it does deserve more. No suggestion should be forbidden from being expanded in a perfectly logical way.

Original: "Let's make elves give out a kind of wood that they can identify, so we can trade it back to them."
You: "MAGIC WOOD OMG MAGIC LET'S GET INTO WHAT MAGIC IS AND WHY IT IS ALSO TECHNOLOGY"

That's a fair amount of strawmanning. The technology thing was an analogy. And I wasn't the one who brought up how the magic works.

No, you just really like talking about certain topics and that's why we're talking about goddamn magic as an entire expansive system for the hundredth time instead of talking about the actual suggestion. This is not the "perfectly logical magic" thread, this is the thread for elves giving out some kind of wood they can identify. It is not trying to explain why or how it is identifiable or what the racial elven belief is on magic. It doesn't even magic the magical magic. Nor magic it magic magic or magic. Magic.

I'm sorry, silly me thinking that a thread entitled "Magic/Enchanted Wood" might cover wood that was enchanted to be better as a weapon or something.

[GoombaGeek]

But it does deserve more. No suggestion should be forbidden from being expanded in a perfectly logical way.

Original: "Let's make elves give out a kind of wood that they can identify, so we can trade it back to them."
You: "MAGIC WOOD OMG MAGIC LET'S GET INTO WHAT MAGIC IS AND WHY IT IS ALSO TECHNOLOGY"

That's a fair amount of strawmanning. The technology thing was an analogy. And I wasn't the one who brought up how the magic works.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Despite what the School of TVtropes Internet Uniqueness may say, calling something "strawmanning" does not immediately entitle you to ignore what it says and act smug. You have absolutely kept going in the wrong direction in this thread.

This is the wrong thread for technology and magic. This is the thread for the Elven Stamp of Approval. Stop bringing up your own aweshum ideal magic system. Stop.

An analogy for what?? "This has the stamp of approval on it. It would not be possible without advanced CNC devices which machine the stamps we use on it. Technology is related! Help I can't feel my arm again"

I'm sorry, silly me thinking that a thread entitled "Magic/Enchanted Wood" might cover wood that was enchanted to be better as a weapon or something.

That is pretty damn silly. Silly me, reading the title and completely ignoring the content of the first post to further my bizarre, twisted views of what magic should be in the wrong thread once again. Hey, look, this other thread is called 'Vector based font'! That means font will have magnitude and direction? Font shouldn't be able to rotate! Why read the first post to find out what the suggester meant when the meaning is perfectly clear from the three-word title alone? It can be whatever I want it to be!

The magic discussion stemmed from someone posting a webcomic link. Then one mysterious person said "Some of the Threetoe's stories mentioned that elves armed themselves with weapons made of "hardened" wood. I believe it's the same as "enchantment" discussed here, except elves don't think it to be magical. Well, they most likely don't think their tree-shaping to be magic either.". Then you quoted a law (oh boy, laws!) and that started this trainwreck. Trainwreck as in "derail". Stop.

[Neonivek]

What makes you think that elves don't have any idea how their magic works? We humans tried to figure out how our "magic" works, didn't we?

GreatWyrmgold you really didn't understand the context or meaning of my post. In fact you derived the antithesis of its meaning.

I was trying to explain how the Elven ability to get trees to give up their wood through dancing and singing could be perfectly explainable in their terms and thus outside the realm of magic. At least to the same extent that anything can be explained in a world where science and knowledge is far more limited to that of our own.

So an Elf may not know WHY they have the ability to talk to trees appart from some sort of philosophical explanation, but on the same hand even humans at this time didn't know a lot of the reasons of things beyond some philosophical explanations.

Why do I bring this into the conversation? because it stems from "Enchanted wood".

The difference between magic and technology as far as this topic is concerned is not whether or not it counts for the magic system it is entirely contextual.

Is Enchanting wood "normal" for elves, is it an ordinary occurance or do elven shamans perform it?

If it is normal then it is something elves can do normally.

Now here is the thing the topic creator isn't talking about the Enchanted "Harder then metal" wood that appeared in the story. He is talking about the wood that Elves gather normally. Something that can easily be considered "Unmagical" and not be enchanted in anyway and thus not have a stamp.

Which is really the thing. Elven wood from the same trees should be no different except possible in initial unworked appearance. So how would the Elves ever know if you are using it or not? I guess there could be an intrigue option with the Liar skill involved.