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[DTF]

Why do people keep saying DF is a difficult game to play?

Because you don't have a clue what you are supposed to do, at first?
The wiki and this forum are filled to the brim with all the information you could ever need to 'succeed' in this game. Granted, there is a lot of information - then again that is the natural price for complexity.
(Still cannot find an answer to a question? Post in this forum. I don't know of any other forum where people are so eager and sincere to share their wisdom.)


Because you have to familiarize yourself with the menus first?
I admit, the interface is the polar opposite of f.ex. the sterlized UI of 'Eternal Space'. But why does it matter - the setup of the interface is the same for every DF game you play. Memorize it once (or use the wiki) and it's just as good as any other.
Same as with above, all that is required is time and the will to learn it.
(DF's interface isn't really all that bad, anyway. Ever played Aurora? If you think DF is confusing, Aurora will make you cry while it beats you with excel space spreadsheets, laughing manically. But both will reward you with amazing gameplay and depth if you endure.)


Because you utterly fail at your first few fortresses?
Thats the point of this game. I know, it might be difficult to wrap your head around that pilosophy what with all these dumbed down games nowadays that carry you to victory.

The famous 'learning curve' picture of DF sums it up really well. It takes time and effort to climb it, but after that you can enjoy the view from atop the plateau while you explore the rest of the game at a leisurely pace. At some point you'll might even feel it is getting rather dull and boring.

Maybe Toady did make DF a bit too hard to grasp on purpose. Imagine him as an author, writing an epic and complex book with 4-digit page numbers. Those people, who will most likely never appreciate his work anyway, turn away immediately upon seeing such a huge book ('Sorry, but a book of that size will never fit onto my mobile to read it in the subway...brah!'). Or maybe he just has more important - and fun - things in mind to change in DF.

+++ Don't mind me, I just really like rambling on about things without actually contributing to a conversation. +++

[codyorr]

I usually only make comments like eccentricheathen when I'm very drunk. WTF?

[Thecard]

[Aseaheru]

Yes.

[DTF]

image here

Damn! Totally forgot about that one.
That image : DF <=> Theory of everything : universe.

Simple. Beautiful.

[Mr Space Cat]

(DF's interface isn't really all that bad, anyway. Ever played Aurora? If you think DF is confusing, Aurora will make you cry while it beats you with excel space spreadsheets, laughing manically. But both will reward you with amazing gameplay and depth if you endure.)

Oh man, Aurora. I got that installed on my computer, got a shortcut to it and everything. I can't even grasp it, and have yet to even start the first gaming session. It's like an eldritch tome of purple prose written in unpronounceable alien tongues for me. I look at it and think "lulnope" and close the program again, because my mind cannot grasp its true form.
-----------
On topic:
Personally, I fail to see a problem with DF. Toady is doing what he wants to do the way he wants to, and is perfectly ok with it and wouldn't have it any other way. I can't help but respect the guy for it.

DF itself is easily one of the most complex "games"/simulations, what have you, ever written. It contains so much content in the code; where else could you dig out your own fortress populated by alcoholic midgets with an obsession for engraving their walls with images of cheese and elephants cowering in magma?

The sheer amount of content DF contains more than makes up for the UI or bugs. The fact Toady is happy and willing to dedicate his life to such a complex project makes up for and little bugs or slow developing time. Slow developing time is to be expected, the game is a hulking construct of code for one guy to tackle.

The FPS death is also to be expected, considering the amount of code the computer has to run through. No game with the sheer amount of code and calculations of DF can hope to run flawlessly on any computer. It's an unfortunate side effect of the way DF delivers its content.

[Mesa]

Toady wants to make the game as elaborate, detailed and complete as possible.
He doesn't do it for money, he doesn't do it for fame (well, he kinda does - he did get famous, but he never did it TO become a celebrity), he does it just...To do it.

That's the best way I can describe it.
It's a Pyramid Of Time of gaming, so to speak.

You know how it will look like in the end (roughly), but you doubt it will survive to that point. (or more importantly - if YOU will survive)

[Scoops Novel]

The main problem with DF is that its causing me to think anything is codeable and toady keeps on acting like it's true. I mean, come on! Look at the development plan! Look at the personality rewrite? Look whats he's actually somehow pulled off! The toad is mighty and this reality is his plaything like all others.

On a distinct serious point, its also causing me to somewhat underestimate the fun potential inherent in dwarf fortress as it is whilst slavering for what is to come.

[DTF]

The main problem with DF is that its causing me to think anything is codeable and toady keeps on acting like it's true. I mean, come on!

You are just blinded by the heresy that is the modern pop-gaming industry!
Open your eyes and see! SEE THE MIGHT OF THE TOADY ONE. FOR HE IS THE ONE TRUE DEVELOPER!

(there are others like him, forgoing quick cash, drugs and sex in order to create a REAL game - but for dramatic purposes ignored them)

[Thecard]

Oh, DF is definitely going to be finished.

We'll probably all be dead when it is though.

[Aseaheru]

lets hope someone comes up with the tech that will allow the Toad to live forever, while producing more things for DF.

[Loud Whispers]

So I dl'ed this game about a year ago, and loved it.  I could tell it was unpolished, but it gave me hours of entertainment.  I was drooling for the finished product.

The finished product Mr. Freeman, it will be a lifetime forwards... A journey we all get to stand by.

Eventually I suffered FPS death one too many times, and told myself I'd try it again in a year or so when naturally it would be completed.  How wrong I was.

A LIFETIME MR. FREEMAN!

Why is this game taking so long to make?

Maybe Toady's adding more things like genetics, world generation that can replicate real world erosion and land formation, fluid mechanics and a highly advanced biological damage system... Oh wait never mind, those are all already in the game. Next one introduces psychology and the fear of death.

I feel bad for the creator, because while he moves at a snail's pace fixing everything in the game, everyone and their mother is reaping tons of money on shoddier but more "complete" clone products.  I know nothing about coding, but it just seems like he's taking the most long-winded way of making a game you can possibly take.

The way that ensures he makes something great - that comes out of his labours and two people's designs.

While most of the updates seem obsessed with "tinkering".

*Adding brilliant features to a game, both in utility and actual gameplay.

1.  FPS death.  As I understand it, this was a result of the insane detailing of the code.  All those calculations going on in the background are enjoyed by about five people. DF's fanbase and Toady himself.

Ftfy. No one likes FPS death, but that's an issue that will be addressed when nearly enough of Dwarf Fortress's features have been realized.

Stop catering to the engineering school kids, and streamline this for the rest of the planet.

*Streamline this for the lowest common denominators!

Your bank account will thank you.

Toady has turned down multiple digit offers for rights over DF.

2.  The learning curve.  It honestly feels like the creator doesn't want people to play his games

*Tutorial is one of those useless tinkering things to be added. The learning curve is the same with any other game - you become accustomed to it and learn how to play it. There is just more depth to DF than most other games to first grasp.

...And has devised the most incomprehensible interface to address a sadistic desire to keep people from playing his game.

Words are bad in an ASCII game?

Once again, streamline it.  Five people will be horrified, the rest of the planet will rejoice.

...
Heh.

3.  World creation versus gameplay.  LOOK AT THIS AMAZING WORLD FILLED TO THE BRIM WITH FANTASY, ADVENTURE, AND DIVERSITY!  Now play the game in .0001% of that land.  Do not interact with the outside world, do not allow your dwarves to explore, do not have any interaction with the civilization your dwarves came from.

/Useless tinkering to be added.

I realize the "adventure" game allows you to explore the game world.
However only five people play the adventure game.

/Adventure mode sub forum

Most people play Dwarf Fortress to you know, have a Dwarf Fortress. 

The original goal was to have Dwarf Fortresses, then have adventurers explore them.

I realize that this post sounds like trolling but I'm just very disappointed with the lack of progress in this game.  There's about fifty clones of this game already, and while I've yet to see one that surpasses the original, eventually one of them will and leave this game in the dust, which is tragic because it has such promise.

[citation needed]

[Aseaheru]

I know of atleast 6 people who will dislike streamlining.
besides, itll make it less special. if anyone and their dead grandmother can build a computer will making one be interesting?

[eccentricheathen]

I am very grateful for all the replies and attention that was paid to my post.  Some of it's good info, other stuff sounds like nonsense, and to the jerks... well, being you is punishment enough.   Anyways...

1.  I realize that Toady seems to have a vision, and many people on here clearly believe in that vision.  I just wonder if perhaps hiring a coder or four that share his vision and could help him out might be a good idea.  It makes me wonder if the *strange moods* aren't patterned after the creator of the game...  The only difference is that the dwarves either complete their vision or go insane.  Has me worried about Toady...

2.  Could someone explain to me how much all the "depth" in the coding actually adds to the game?  I'll be honest, it's not the fluid mechanics and geological layer generation (or whatever) that have me hooked on this game.  I find combat in the game really difficult to decypher (I don't think it necessary to list fifty lines of my Dwarf's fat layer getting hit, or whatever).  Creating a water reservoir is an absolute pain.  Getting the dwarves to actually do what I want them to do shouldn't involve wading through the bugs to figure out which one is keeping my dwarf from his assigned task.  Which leads me to...

3.  When I bashed the UI, it was in terms of trying to get my friends to play.  I WANTED to play the game desperately, and so I took the time to learn the interface.  I have trouble getting anyone else interested, because despite all the crying about the ASCII graphics, it's really the interface that keeps people away.  I don't care what anyone has to say; it is needlessly complicated, and could be streamlined into a simpler format that wouldn't be such a turn-off.  I don't mind difficulty in a game, but it should come FROM the game, not from attempts to interpret the interface so you can play the game.  If I recall correctly, perhaps a good example of how frustrating it can be is how the keys used to select more than one item changes arbitrarily depending on what thing you are trying to select (sometimes it's arrows and sometimes it letters, it should be one or the other, not different depending on the circumstance).  That's not depth, it's poor design.  It just seems like so much of the game is complicated just to be complicated, rather than from necessity.   

One last question.  I remember a few versions back there was a version of DF someone made.  It was kind of like a Lazy Newb Pack, but not quite that simplified.  I think it was called Dwarf Fortress Plus or something (I know when it installed the folder name was either "DF+" or something similar).  Does anyone know if that exists for the current version?  IMHO it was even better than the LNP.  Thanks for any help!

[Thecard]

If someone doesn't like the interface, they can kindly fuck off.  I don't wanna sound like an asshole here, but why the hell would Toady change his game for other people?  It's his game, and he isn't doing it to get money or fame.  He doesn't have any problem with it taking a while to make.

Seriously, if we didn't exist Toady would probably still be trying to make his game.  We're the ones benefiting here.  To quote an old rhyme: "ya get what ya get and ya don't throw a fit."