Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Neonivek]

Sounds good. Mages get tired (another explanation for "mana" which is rarely brought to its full conclusion), and need to remember spells. Simple enough.

But that makes LESS sense then Mana.

How do spells use fatigue?

[Manveru Taurënér]

Have Toady or Threetoe ever given any lengthy answers to their view on df magic? I'd be willing to bet they have a fairly good idea of how they want their magic system to work at its core but maybe not all the details worked out, so it'd probably be helpful to ask them for a future dftalk or something if we want our discussions to be more useful for inspiration ^^

[Neonivek]

Have Toady or Threetoe ever given any lengthy answers to their view on df magic? I'd be willing to bet they have a fairly good idea of how they want their magic system to work at its core but maybe not all the details worked out, so it'd probably be helpful to ask them for a future dftalk or something if we want our discussions to be more useful for inspiration ^^

Toady hasn't had anything set.

In the only story involving excessive amounts of magic a lot of it was just channeling sources, usually otherworldly sources, with no indication of fatigue, mind you it had mana pools but ones you had to manually replenish (Getting more dream matter for dream spells), and required concentration. Magic was often an inherantly corrupting source of power and excessively using it lead to dire concequences. Though not all magic was corrupting and you could rise above a sources corruption and become immune.

Sources in the story
-Nature or Fae magic
-Raw Dream matter
-Darkness (Boogeymen related)
-Infernal magic (no known source but you can guess it was by channeling hell)
-Armok or God powered magic (or god bestowed magic)
-Illusion magic (no known source)

It had one other source but we never learn what it is exactly.

[Manveru Taurënér]

Have Toady or Threetoe ever given any lengthy answers to their view on df magic? I'd be willing to bet they have a fairly good idea of how they want their magic system to work at its core but maybe not all the details worked out, so it'd probably be helpful to ask them for a future dftalk or something if we want our discussions to be more useful for inspiration ^^

Toady hasn't had anything set.

In the only story involving excessive amounts of magic a lot of it was just channeling sources, usually otherworldly sources, with no indication of fatigue, mind you it had mana pools but ones you had to manually replenish (Getting more dream matter for dream spells), and required concentration. Magic was often an inherantly corrupting source of power and excessively using it lead to dire concequences. Though not all magic was corrupting and you could rise above a sources corruption and become immune.

Sources in the story
-Nature or Fae magic
-Raw Dream matter
-Darkness (Boogeymen related)
-Infernal magic (no known source but you can guess it was by channeling hell)
-Armok or God powered magic (or god bestowed magic)
-Illusion magic (no known source)

It had one other source but we never learn what it is exactly.

So, sounds like it'll simply be based on having a source of great power to draw upon for your spells, which would also have some impact on the spells used? (giving them characteristics linked to the source) Sounds look a good idea, and would mean most ways of magic discussed would be possible in a way, with different flavor and variation to go around.

[Neonivek]

It kinda makes me hope that Dwarf Fortress doesn't settle on "One" type of magic and that its source actually leads to the mechanics of how exactly it works.

[Nonsequitorian]

Having magic cause fatigue makes significantly more sense then a magical pool of energy somehow related to the idea of a soul or whatever mana is, because it's really just a word that we assume to mean "magical stuffs."

I mean, have you ever taken a test or gone on a really long drive? You're exhausted afterwords. A long drive doesn't sound exhausting, and you can easily stay 13 hours awake and not be exhausted, but something after doing that for 13 hours - and driving isn't much more than sitting and making sure you don't run into obstacles for the most part - is exhausting. Magic uses the mind to a great extent in how we invision it. You never hear about the village fool who can smash bricks against his head and conjure the powers of all hell to take over the world, do you (though that would be a pretty funny plot for a story)?

Nature magic (and not Fae magic, because Fae is just one of those vague "mean nothing" terms like mana) could come from the spiritual sense you get from going on a walk through a forest or on the shore. That would make sense, because you become more intune with your surroundings. I don't mean worshipping a tree for your powers like an elf does, because magic shouldn't be limited to worship, it shouldn't be limited at all. If my "Use tree branch to slap somebody's bum" spell required anything of me, it'd make sense that it'd be a tree. Nature magic. Tree bum slapping magic.

Dreams as magical BGs sounds pretty interesting, would give a cool "theory" for what dreams were (and I say "theory," because we know what dreams are and we know there isn't such a thing as magic). Sounds to me like just harnessing magic missiles (which is another strange no meaning term, because what is the missile made out of if magic isn't strictly a thing?) or whatnot to beat somebody up. You'd need a way to harness dreams.

Armok/God bestowed abilities make sense, but they shouldn't be limited to just your average laser tampon beam spell. Things like Heracles or Achilles or other related non-natural but non-strictly-magic sort of things should be under here.

Illusion I don't see as magic, really. I mean we DO have that in the real world. We have sleight of hand and tricks that seem very convincing, but aren't real. Sure, there may be some sort of hologram spell, but illusions aren't necessarily magic. I could be an illusion using wizard yet not know any real magic. I'd be convincing, and by the game standards I might be real. I say that Ilussion, as it's really only deception skills and maybe some spells, should be the least intensive in terms of power/whatever usage, alongside Armok/God given ones.

I mean we seem to limit magic to being a thing. We say magic is fireballs and stuff or we say that there's a force that resides somewhere where there is most magic. Why is magic a thing? It's limiting to say that the magic force stuff lays around the earth up in the sky, waiting to be conjured and then whatever. Magic should just be anything that makes extra-ordinary things happen. A ruin that has some sort of meaning scratched onto a sword should be magic as well as some old crummudgeon who reads a lot and learns how to never eat or sleep through the books. I mean, maybe nobody really needs to eat and sleep if they know what he knows. Maybe it's as simple as "never touch your bellybutton unless it's sunday and the moon is out" but it's still magic.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Sounds good. Mages get tired (another explanation for "mana" which is rarely brought to its full conclusion), and need to remember spells. Simple enough.

But that makes LESS sense then Mana.

How do spells use fatigue?

Why does it make less sense? It's just the caster using his/her energy to power the spell.

It kinda makes me hope that Dwarf Fortress doesn't settle on "One" type of magic and that its source actually leads to the mechanics of how exactly it works.

Indeed. That won't stop people from arguing why their idea is the One Good Magick for DF.

[Neonivek]

Why does it make less sense? It's just the caster using his/her energy to power the spell

You are exchanging protien, Fat, and surgars into magical energy and exhausting your muscles and thus causing them to produce toxins for little reason.

Having magic cause fatigue makes significantly more sense then a magical pool of energy somehow related to the idea of a soul or whatever mana is, because it's really just a word that we assume to mean "magical stuffs."

No, mana is raw magic... or rather Mana "IS" magic.

A Mana "Pool" is Stored magic or a "Pool" of "Magic". The source of this magic can be anything.

It actually makes a lot more sense to use magic to do magic. Then it is by magically transforming effort into magic. In settings where the Mana pool is provided by the soul is setting where "Magic is powered by your very soul"

In fact it makes such little sense that most settings that use magic - exhaustion NEVER use the "You flex your muscles to do magic" and either explain it by being an equivilant exchange of effort or by it being stress your body undergoes by performing magic.

Where did this idea that a Mana pool making no sense come to pass?

In fact if Stamina = Magic... Then you still have a Mana Pool except this Mana Pool is supplied by your muscles.

[Nonsequitorian]

But that doesn't at all explain what magic is. What is using the magic? Your brain? That would make you tired, as it must exert some kind of stress to make it uncommon enough to be "magic" and not just "we can all throw fireballs all the time."

Do all things have mana? Than why can't all things use magic? It makes sense to use magic to magic, but not unless something is actually using the magic. SOMETHING has to happen. Your brain has to at least THINK about using the magic, and then some contrived organ probably has to do some magic using function or something.

You are exchanging protein, fats, and sugars into energy, which is quickly spent on the extremely brain-stressing task of making something out of nothing, thusly leaving less energy for other functions, thusly making all your other muscles - which don't have as much energy because it was taken up by magicing - make toxins faster. Makes about as much sense to me as UzBrain2Magic with MagikPhorse.

Also, and much more importantly, we already have fatigue in the game, and we have modifiers of how fast that goes down in both Dwarf and Adventure mode. We don't have mana. It would make more sense to use what we already have to do something, because otherwise there's not much of a point for fatigue. Sure you gotta sleep more often in adventure mode, but if you don't at least once a day already you can get fucked over by the buggy system, and a big fight can already fuck it up even if your sleeping habits are good.

A long fight uses X fatiuge and you kill your foe, or you go quick and use magic, using X fatigue and kill your foe (only faster). You don't learn as much with the magic, but you can probably stay a little farther away and get it over with faster. Seems like a perfect trade off, as it lets a fighter have his place in learning fighting, and a mage type using magic. A legendary of either would already be a super soldier, as being so powerful would mean you could kill any normal foe without skipping a beat (thus not using any equatable amount of awakeness).

[Neonivek]

Yes so we established that "Magic is Sugar, Protien, and Fat" meaning that we still have a Mana pool.

You tried to eliminate a mana pool but substituting a more rediculous one.

Do all things have mana? Than why can't all things use magic?

It depends on the setting. In most though it is two reasons
1) They are using magic all the time, the fabric of reality is woven in magic.
2) Having magic and being able to manipulate it are two different things.

Think of it this way. You have arms and legs, why can't you perform black belt level martial arts? Could you learn? Certainly but it isn't an inherant ability.

Heck you have arms and legs. Are you double jointed? Maybe. You may have arms and legs (Magic) but you may not be able to use it certain ways (spells)

It is always very setting specific. Magic Carpet once again EVERYONE has mana because Mana is simply the energy of life itself. Yet you need an external source of mana to perform magic, but mana always replenishes itself even when you expend it. (In essence in Magic Carpet, Mana is a battery that always replenishes itself, a lot like the circle of life itself because Mana IS life in that setting). In Exalted Mana is everything and all magic originates from pure creative chaos, and while everyone has mana the ability to see and manipulate it is a hard skill to train and requires outside intervention, Magic replenishes because magic slowly infuses and permiates everything.

--

Remember ANY form of stored magic or stored magic fuel is a Mana Pool. The only way you take away a mana pool is simply by having magic not use anything and not cost anything.

For example Full Metal Alchemist didn't have a mana pool (sorta, it is complicated) it worked because Magic in that universe is basically part of the laws of physics and worked by simply rearranging things. Everyone didn't do it because it was an academic study on part with psychics or chemistry.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Why does it make less sense? It's just the caster using his/her energy to power the spell

You are exchanging protien, Fat, and surgars into magical energy and exhausting your muscles and thus causing them to produce toxins for little reason.

And how does that make less sense than magic in general?

Having magic cause fatigue makes significantly more sense then a magical pool of energy somehow related to the idea of a soul or whatever mana is, because it's really just a word that we assume to mean "magical stuffs."

No, mana is raw magic... or rather Mana "IS" magic.
A Mana "Pool" is Stored magic or a "Pool" of "Magic". The source of this magic can be anything.

And how does a substance which lets you warp the laws of physics make sense at all?

It actually makes a lot more sense to use magic to do magic. Then it is by magically transforming effort into magic. In settings where the Mana pool is provided by the soul is setting where "Magic is powered by your very soul"

And how does this make more sense than using caloric energy to power magic?

In fact it makes such little sense that most settings that use magic - exhaustion NEVER use the "You flex your muscles to do magic" and either explain it by being an equivilant exchange of effort or by it being stress your body undergoes by performing magic.

And how does that explanation make less sense than your idea of mana?
Anyways, ATP powers more than muscles.

Where did this idea that a Mana pool making no sense come to pass?

The part where it's never explained?

In fact if Stamina = Magic... Then you still have a Mana Pool except this Mana Pool is supplied by your muscles.

...and the mana pool is justified.

[Neonivek]

Mind you the Dream magic had a mana pool in that you needed stored dream matter to cast magic.

Dreams litterally being what Magic formed from dreams are made of. Essentially in this case Dreams = Mana.

[Nonsequitorian]

Okay, Dream magic has literal dream matter (whatever that may be), but that doesn't nullify making it exhausting to try to use your dream matter. I always find it silly when in games somebody casts a bunch of spells and then physically CANNOT for a short amount of time until he has more mana. You don't punch somebody in the face a couple times and realize your punching-ness isn't high enough to deliver the last one. Sure, you may be exhausted, but you don't need to wait before you punch.

And wouldn't it make PERFECT sense that for dream magic, you NEED to sleep to regain power? I mean, it is a dream is it not? Maybe using dream magic doesn't exhaust you as much, but you still have to sleep at the end of a battle to recharge your dream batteries so you can use your dream flashlight to scare some oogy-boogymen.

As regards to the martial arts example, okay. I mean yeah, I need to learn martial arts before I can use my arms and legs like that. Good point. Makes sense. Still though, I can punch somebody in the face without any training. If I had never lived with people and then got in a fight, I probably would instinctively know how to scratch them. If I have magic powers inherintly, would I be able to make lights or pick up stones with my mind? That wouldn't make sense, because then why would we ever need torches or whatever? When you start, you have minimal magic knowledge. Doing something as mundane as the most mundane spell would be impossible, yet punching and kicking isn't.

Also, why is mana "life energy?" What is life and why would it have an energy you can harness? DF really doesn't like life points or assigning numbers to animals, so why would it be like that for mana? If I captured a bunch of hoary marmots and stuffed them in my bag and had a drain mana sort of spell, I'd have  what could be a very powerful source of energy. From hoary marmots. A hoary marmot battery.

Okay, let's say that works, but draining such power causes corruption of the user. And? I'm still the player. I can cast as many spells, starve and drain my hoary marmot battery until it's near dead, and be as much a dick as I want, yet I'm still the player. Until I've decided as a player to be evil, what's saying that I am? The people? What, I've cast a couple "throw dilldo" spells at a moose outside their town, but that's not evil. I haven't hurt them. Sure, I'm weird and probably screwed in the head, but not evil.

[Adrian]

I know it's arrogant to quote yourself, but

I'd prefer to see
-"Magic" as something only deities can preform and the mortals can only ask the deities for favors.
 -Deities only being able to influence things in their respective spheres.
-A deity's power being proportional to the amount of worship it receives from around the world.
 -This wouldn't have to end with deities. A vampire with a large enough cult following could gain special abilities as well.

or runic magic in any way, shape or form. Simply because it's dwarfy.

But the two are hardly mutually exclusive

And on the subject of mana, if deities are not the source of "magic":

Consider mages being able to produce a quantified amount of magic through the spell casting labor. This would be used to fuel their spells.
One-off effects (like teleporting a gobin's spine two squares away) would require charging, and lasting effects (like a trout-rain) might require constant fueling.

I can definitely see a floor full of necromancers chanting away to keep their hordes animated.

Mana is a pool belonging to the caster, which is used up as spells are cast. I was describing an opposite: A pool which belongs to a spell and which needs to be full for it to function properly.
Also, there don't have to be numbers in-game. It could be a background calculation.

I was suggesting it more so we wouldn't be able to spam asteroids on sieges.
"You want boulder-rain? Sure, but unless you want the ceiling in the dining hall to collapse you'd better have enough talented mages."

[Neonivek]

why is mana "life energy?" What is life and why would it have an energy you can harness? DF really doesn't like life points or assigning numbers to animals, so why would it be like that for mana?

Ugh, I keep repeating myself so I hope I don't get called out on it because people are asking the same question.

Mana is simply another word for magic. A Mana pool is simply stored magic or stored fuel for magic

Mana or rather the essence or building blocks of magic can be anything but it all depends on the setting. Using Mana as life itself isn't anything completely unusual, blood magic itself functions on the basis that "Life" is a source of magic, and often sacrifices of health or age are included in magic (and are often more powerful then other forms).

Mana as being from or being life would still work in Dwarf fortress because life isn't measured by hitpoints unless a setting has hitpoints.

When magic IS life, it often means that magic is in everything. That it is what allows things to continue.

If I have magic powers inherintly, would I be able to make lights or pick up stones with my mind? That wouldn't make sense, because then why would we ever need torches or whatever? When you start, you have minimal magic knowledge. Doing something as mundane as the most mundane spell would be impossible, yet punching and kicking isn't.

It once again depends on the setting. It could be
A) Magic is very expencive to learn and practice. Often to the extent that an academy of magic is funded by the King and only one can exist.
B) Magic is a academic study and requires years of study to function and can easily go wrong (Full Metal Alchemist this is the case. Anyone can do it in that setting)
-Any combination of "Academic", "Length", and "Drawbacks"
C) the ability to manipulate magic is a rare gift (Dragon Age this is the case)
D) The ability to perform magic must be bestowed from someone or something (Exalted this is the case... sorta)
E) Magic comes at a cost that most people do not want to pay

Everyone has magic power inherantly in some settings but the ability to manipulate this magic power is something else entirely. Being somewhere between meditation and academic study.