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[10ebbor10]

Can't seem to find the plan itself, but here's a NASA document about the viability.
link

[GreatWyrmGold]

well, would geothermal work?

i mean, VENUS. HOT.

Surface hot. Close to sun, plus rampant greenhouse effect. Not imply much geothermal activity. Probably a bit less than Terra.

They're so cold they're below the absolute zero?

He probably meant Fahrenheit. -400 is about 70 degrees warmer than absolute zero.

dhokarena: Not quoting your long post, but why would you need to import water anywhere? Just recycle it. We can already do it. Luna also has the advantage of being a natural spaceport: Big enough to have some gravity, small enough that anything which boosts off of main worlds will be able to escape easily, and next-door to Earth. I could easily see a combination of self-sustaining farms, spacecraft maintenance stuff, geriatric communities, tourist traps, etc, making Luna the second- or third-most populous world. Oh, and H₃. And maybe exporting solar power. Certainly not the least populous.
And why would Titan usurp Earth as the seat of humanity's government?
And yeah, the asteroid belt isn't a problem for anyone who isn't suicidal or cursed by God. Maybe only the first one (even postulating God's existence).

[Starver]

Luckily, Venus is quite windy. Extend some anchors with sails downward, some windmills upward and take advantage of different air layers. As for the cloud city falling, generally, that should be unlikely as no thing will be reliant on a single floatation device. Maybe you can even add some shutes to allow for plenty of recovery time. People really should be strapped on/ inside.

Maybe I'm just not good with heights depths, but I just feel that this would be precarious.  Maybe this means I'd find any spaceflight unsuitable, and even re-entry down to solid (Martian, Ionian or whatever) ground a problem.  OTOH, right now I think I could handle freefall if I know that it's more "free" than "fall".  (Now, would I work outside of a spinning station, knowing I might get flung off?  I don't know.  There's a good short SF story regarding that kind of situation, but I won't bore you with it now)

Mercury would require a driving base to stay in the twilight, or a ridiculous amount of heat shielding. Also, Venus the only nongasgiant (not counting earth) planet with a decent magnetic field.

Are you aware of the the solution that was used for the Mercury base as depicted near the end of KSR's R/G/B-Mars trilogy of books?  A pretty neat solution, I think, though I won't spoilt if for you (even though it's not a major plot point, just a passing location used for a few 'scenes' of action)  It's within a nominally, if speculatively, Hard-SF framework with the "day after the day after tomorrow" kind of tech-level, but is actually far less speculative a mechanism than the far bigger spoiler about genetics developments...

Spoiler: which is... (click to show/hide)

...combining the terraforming of Mars with "Areoforming" of Martian settlers bodies and of their offspring, for a "meet you half way" approach to making the place liveable and speed the process up for those so treated.

[Starver]

The thing about Europa is that it's too hospitable. There's a good chance of life there, and even without it being fairly obvious investigation would be insisted on unless absolutely necessary. Also, limitless supply's of energy? Whereforth do you draw that conclusion?

Everyone's missing the big problem with Europa...  That we were told that "All these worlds are ours, except Europa, attempt no landing there"!  You know, in that message we got a couple of years ago, when Jupiter got turned into a minor star...  Jeesh, guys, why does everyone keep forgetting that this happened..?

I guess we'll find out what's actually going on down there in another 48 years, though...

[Aseaheru]

i say no GM anything until we work out the bugs.
and there are alot of bugs.
like most 2ed gen being mutant.

[Sheb]

Aseaheru, what exactly are you talking about?

Also, this discussion has a big problem: we are talking about different tech levels. Some people are talking of colonization in 500 years, other in 10 or 20. We should have a (or several) common framework.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Aseaheru, what exactly are you talking about?

He's talking about hyped-up fears over GM foods. Some are rational, some are not. But when you've got a genetically modified fish for food that's close to getting FDA approval...well, Toto, we're not in the 20th century anymore.

Also, this discussion has a big problem: we are talking about different tech levels. Some people are talking of colonization in 500 years, other in 10 or 20. We should have a (or several) common framework.

The biggest problem is that no one actually knows where we'll be in 500, 50, or even 5 years. Obama could save the economy next month, or he could ruin it so badly that it takes a decade of Republican presidents to fix it (note that while these are possible, they're at the opposite ends of improbable). And I'm willing to bet no notable improvements in space colonization will be implemented until the economy turns around. Even then, there's lots of variables. Who puts in the money? Who makes the spaceships? Who colonizes the worlds or mans the spacecraft? What are their goals? Will the improvements we expect happen, not happen, or be exceeded? It all makes a difference.

[Sheb]

Sure, but tech-wise we can still discuss. We all know space elevators are not feasible yet (because we don't have a material fit for the cable) for exemple. He3 won't be a valuable ressources for a long time (if not forever) etc etc etc.

[Starver]

The key to this thread is that we're speculating.  I see no problem in having limitless range in what span of future times any particular speculative foray.

Of course, if I were to say "By the year 100,000, our consciousnesses will be free-floating and non-corporeal, navigating the metaverse outside the bounds of our current visible and detectable space and time dimensions", I'd probably be a tad wrong and what I say could probably be assumed to be a pure guess.  (And, besides, It'll probably happen by 50,000 AD.)


OTOH, someone guessing what the next development will be on the ISS superstructure (that hasn't already been firmly announced) which furthers mankind's foray into the void is probably playing it more safe, but could still be wrong!

[GreatWyrmGold]

Sure, but tech-wise we can still discuss. We all know space elevators are not feasible yet (because we don't have a material fit for the cable) for exemple. He3 won't be a valuable ressources for a long time (if not forever) etc etc etc.

Actually, H₃ isn't worthless--it evidently has industrial applications of some kind, so the price has been skyrocketing as the supply dwindles to nothing. It's worth quite a bit.
And I agree with the bit on space elevators from a practical standpoint.

[Aseaheru]

h3 has a use.
hydrogen bombs.

as for gm foods,
NO TESTING IS REQUIRED.
really. according to the FDA a gm food is identical to a non gm food.

[Urist Imiknorris]

H₃ != He₃.

[GreatWyrmGold]

as for gm foods,
NO TESTING IS REQUIRED.
really. according to the FDA a gm food is identical to a non gm food.

Then explain this. It's possible I misremembered--I read it a while ago.

[Sheb]

Aseaharu, you've evidently been eating anti-GM propaganda for breakfast. The "equivalence" pricniple doesn't mean that there is no test, it means that the FDA take the closest relative as a comaprison point and only test the differences. (For exemple GM tobocca would be toxic as shit. But not more than regular tobocco, so we can allow it).

As for He3, as soon as the first few tons of it would land from the moon, the price will crash.

[FearfulJesuit]

I've never really gotten the anti-GM stuff. Sure, the main company (Monsanto) behind GM is pure evil. But, you know, if you're against heavy genetic modification of our food...have you ever eaten corn? Or had a steak? We don't eat teosinte on the cob, y'know. Or auroch burgers. Genes can only ever express one protein, and sure, they could mutate...but that's what they already do, and modern agriculture keeps mutations from spreading very far.