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Author Topic: Humans, and eventually a colony on Mars.  (Read 66819 times)

Starver

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Re: Humans, and eventually a colony on Mars.
« Reply #315 on: January 01, 2013, 08:32:44 pm »

Well, I was pointing out that there's not yet been enough time to have had many sky-scrapers 200 years of age or older.  Things like 12th Century towers in Italy probably don't count though (surprisingly?[1]) there are numerous examples still standing.

Modern Skyscrapers could only really start to exist with the development of the steel frame to keep them up without the masonic footprint (large, compared to actual usable floor space) of a cathedral or castle...  That was the late 19th Century[2].  Less than 200 years have passed since then, so it is pretty much an impossible thing to find one >200 years old.

Even if you count pre-steel-frame "tall" buildings of maybe half a dozen floors (of which there still exist examples, although countless that might have been the "skyscrapers" of the day have been superseded), until there was a reliable elevator (let's say mid 19thC, with the arrival Mr Otis's invention) very few practical buildings were practically going to have that many floors to them.  Again, we've not yet reached the 200-year mark.

(And, yes, as even more modern tower designs have been sought, there have been some failures (Twin Towers not counted), but while "prefab" construction hasn't always been successful (look up "Roman Point tower block", although that one was actually due to a gas explosion, and wasn't just spontaneous) things have been learnt that should mean (never say never...) the modern equivalents and descendants of any previously decried building designs have been designed learning the lessons.  Burk Khalifa may or may not last two hundred years (I'm going to stand up and predict deliberate or accidental man-made damage as the most likely reason for the building, and the immediate surrounds, being either immediately laid waste or abandoned until any successful demolition is performed to make the structure safe in any hypothetical future where it ends its life, because they've done a pretty thorough job of accounting for and mitigating the known natural problems that might affect it and I don't see an 'architecturally conservative' society demolishing it just because it's no longer in the top dozen or so top buildings).


And I'm not bothered about the pyramids being a (non-equivalent) exception, your mention of them just made me want to carve pyramids (or, thinking of it now, perhaps a full set of the Euclidean solids) out of an asteroid and boost them (with a soft fit onto the booster, which would then detach and return (or self-destruct into fragments at a distance) to leave no sign at all of the original propulsion) out there as a cosmic easter-egg.  Although sending a solid-rock model of a Sphinx, a Colossus[3], the Parthenon, or something Machu Pichu-like might be later projects of mine.  But I think I'll stick with the more geometrically interesting ones first.  (A carved-out Möbius strip would be an interesting 'message'...)

I wonder if I could send them on such a perfect trajectory that I can slingshot them around other (uninhabited) extrasolar bodies to later start converging on a target body which (by then, at least) will have been found to have life, or now been populated by human settlers.  Assuming they've not got this post in their extensive archives of Old Earth Cultural Artefacts, I can just imagine them suddenly detecting a whole lot of strange inter-stellar 'visitors' coming in from every-which-way.  Hmm... probably need the propulsion and guidance cradle to stick with the Unidentified Carved Objects for longer than just their exit from our solar-system, in order to guide them better later in their voyagers.  I really need to plan this one out properly...

And iron-rich meteorites, for better radar signature so they have a good chance of getting noticed by someone (eventually!).


(More seriously, hollowed out/puffed-out asteroids as generation ships, yes. why not?  (I don't know if a pyramid shape would work better or worse, against the ravages of inter-stellar space-dust, maybe that's worth modelling.)  More dense than a built craft, of course, but if you're already planning on taking generations then you might as well make yourself a comfy snug-hole in the middle of some rock as much as set yourself off in a titanium can, even at the cost of more propulsive needs and/or slower accelerations.)




[1] By definition, the ones that survived have survived.  Like there's a lot of ancient buildings that haven't survived the ravages of time and/or later generations of man, but the ones that have gotten to the stage where we actually actively preserve them as much as possible were obviously up to the rigours of the elements, earthquakes, nature's more botanical disembowelers of masonry, and obviously not built in the path of human developments from later (less historically-interested) centuries.

[2] Or mid-to-late 19thC.  For 'authority' on this subject, I can claim to have worked in a building originally built in the 1860s, one of the earliest multi-story metal-framed buildings of its type, for which a decent claim was made of it being one of the first such buildings ever to be made, although I forget the precise chronologies of its competitors in that competition.  It's a very primitive precursor of the sky-scraper (only a handful of stories high, and wider than it is tall) but it survived itself and its surrounds being run down and neglected for more than half of the 20thC, together with the dereliction of a lot of the neighbouring buildings, up to the point the entire site was renovated (it and a couple of other neighbouring features given more modern uses).  It is today structurally the same materials everywhere where it counts, and was even kept visually similar during the renovation with just some minor modern touches such as adding an elevator, reflooring and some 'sympathetic glass-and-steel' bits added to provide proper modern practical stairwells and fire-escapes.  Obviously it didn't have to survive the rigours of vacuum and propulsive stresses, just wind and rain and gravity.



[3] With bonus marks for giving it a tentacle face!
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Aseaheru

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Re: Humans, and eventually a colony on Mars.
« Reply #316 on: January 01, 2013, 08:57:29 pm »

what about the 400 year old wooden Japanese  temple-skyscraper-thing?
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10ebbor10

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Re: Humans, and eventually a colony on Mars.
« Reply #317 on: January 02, 2013, 03:18:03 am »

well, unless there is a form of instantaneous communication then loyalty to earth is not that much of an issue, as by the time anything happens it will already be to degraded to matter.
Four words: Violent counter-colonization fleet.
It's something to worry about a little.

(and happier with a practical Venusian surface base than a "cloud city" one),
Unless we find a way to obliterate 99% of a planets athmosphere, we ain't having no Surface bases on Venus. Why does nobody like the floating base thingies.
I don't actually dislike them, and I acknowledge that there'd be problems behind a surface base (thus qualifying the base as needing to be "practical").  I was just stratifying my imagined preferences.  Ground best, orbital worst.  A semi-stable cloud-city might sit between the two.
OTOH, if I think about it more, I could actually be saying "Ground best, orbital next-best, cloud-city worst".  A problem in orbit tends to mean at least some time 'just' in a different orbit (which could be corrected for, or rescued from, as required).  A whole cloud city (or a person working on the outside of it) that somehow ends up falling is just going to quickly find it/themselves heading downwards.  Potentially at great speed.  You have the generally Earthly problem of how to survive the fall mitigated a bit by the thick atmosphere.  But, in turn, you are now faced with the almost-uniquely Venusian issue of how to survive the ground-level pressure and heat and acidity that so discouraged the guys in R&D from constructing any ground-base... And, should you survive, how soon might any practical rescue arrive? ;)
Get me an active Venus Ground Base below me, and I might be happier (with precautions) working on a Venus Cloud Base.  Something tells me I really wouldn't enjoy a tour of duty on a Jovian Cloud Base, even if they can make it a nominally Earth-normal environment by one means or another, and I've a feeling that that's impossible gravity-wise but don't even fancy it enough to speculatively check that out...
I wouldn't mind a cloud base designed by halfway competent engineers. It would probably work by the same principles a balloon or (sea)ship works, and be sealed off similar to a spaceship. I'd rather live in such a base than a spaceship--it's easier to make bigger and has gravity. The biggest problem is power, actually...
Luckily, Venus is quite windy. Extend some anchors with sails downward, some windmills upward and take advantage of different air layers. As for the cloud city falling, generally, that should be unlikely as no thing will be reliant on a single floatation device. Maybe you can even add some shutes to allow for plenty of recovery time. People really should be strapped on/ inside.

well, would geothermal work?

i mean, VENUS. HOT.

You're joking right?

Just in case you aren't.  We don't currently have tech that would last much more than an hour on the surface of Venus in that the pressure is like being under 1km of water. 

It is MUCH easier to throw mercury into Venus and mine the heck out of what is left than to do any colonization of those two, (but I think Venus is much harder than Mercury)
You're joking right?

Venus geothermal could work, but is unlikely because it's temperature difference that matters, not the temperature.

Pressure on Venus might be like about 1 km under water, but last time  I looked most of our submarines were doing fine. Provided we add enough heatsinks, a base can survive for quite some time (Though eventually it will overheat).

I'm beginning to think that you have no idea what you're talking about actually. Do you really think a slightly acidic 600 degree athmosphere is an unovercomeable problem, but the energy required to move two planets orbits on a colision course (Which is, in case you hadn't thought of it; enormous. Probably the same scale as launching a small ship at relativistic speed) and then mining the molten metals (which, as mentioned earlier, will end up in the core of the new planet) amidst an quasioceanic athmosphere of debris acid and ash would suddenly be trivial.

My list of colonization difficulty goes like this:
-Small scale  (5-10) people on the moon
-Small scale  (5-10) people on Mars
-Limited terraforming Venus
-Medium scale basis Moon
-Medium scale basis Mars
-Large scale basis Venus

Mercury would require a driving base to stay in the twilight, or a ridiculous amount of heat shielding. Also, Venus the only nongasgiant (not counting earth) planet with a decent magnetic field.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2013, 05:01:38 am by 10ebbor10 »
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vadia

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Re: Humans, and eventually a colony on Mars.
« Reply #318 on: January 02, 2013, 06:20:07 am »

Yes, i was joking (on scale), but Venus just trashes everything.  You'd need a massive terraforming project.  I think Venus colonization comes somewhere around gas-giant or out of solar system colonization.

In other words Sci-Fi for our kids and probably grandkids.
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Il Palazzo

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Re: Humans, and eventually a colony on Mars.
« Reply #319 on: January 02, 2013, 06:51:58 am »

Mercury would require a driving base to stay in the twilight, or a ridiculous amount of heat shielding. Also, Venus the only nongasgiant (not counting earth) planet with a decent magnetic field.
Haven't you heard? They found water ice on Mercury in the permanently shadowed craters near the poles. Perfect spot for a base, if you ask me(or maybe for life to develop?).
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Sheb

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Re: Humans, and eventually a colony on Mars.
« Reply #320 on: January 02, 2013, 06:53:54 am »

Or never, because frankly what's the point? We've got Mars, the Moon, a few Jovian and Saturnian moons first. Actually, we probably won't ever spread that far.

A moon colony make sense as a space shipyard/science station/industrial place to receive and process asteroids. It also solve the "eggs and baskets" problems. Beyond that, why would people move to Mars? We have no way to efficiently terraform it, and even a climate-wrecked, heavily polluted Earth would still be a cooler place to be.

As for population, Earth's is stabilizing at around 10 billions. Even if that's hard to support, it's easier to support those extra billions humans on Earth than on Mars.

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10ebbor10

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Re: Humans, and eventually a colony on Mars.
« Reply #321 on: January 02, 2013, 07:05:54 am »

Mercury would require a driving base to stay in the twilight, or a ridiculous amount of heat shielding. Also, Venus the only nongasgiant (not counting earth) planet with a decent magnetic field.
Haven't you heard? They found water ice on Mercury in the permanently shadowed craters near the poles. Perfect spot for a base, if you ask me(or maybe for life to develop?).
- 400 degrees celcius isn't exactly what I call a good temperature for a base.
Also, still problems with infrastructure(can't fit everything in a crater), the fact that you're at the poles and solar irradiation.

As for terraforming, Venus can be fairly easily partially terraformed(athmos only), and Mars would take a 1500 years. A sustainable Marsbase might be easier to do. A sustainable moon base, less so.
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Il Palazzo

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Re: Humans, and eventually a colony on Mars.
« Reply #322 on: January 02, 2013, 07:40:16 am »

- 400 degrees celcius isn't exactly what I call a good temperature for a base.
Also, still problems with infrastructure(can't fit everything in a crater), the fact that you're at the poles and solar irradiation.
I don't want to defend the idea too much, as there are obviously many challenges to overcome. Still, the problems you list are not among them.
The high temperature is a problem only outside the crater. Inside there's a nice, if sharp, gradient that doesn't vary much over the Mercurian year. Weren't you just talking about feasibility of geothermal energy?
At dozens of kilometres in diameters, the craters are large enough for any base, barring large-scale colony.
Their polar position means minimised chances of meteor impact, and the crater rim acts as radiation shielding from anything the Sun might want to throw at the colonists.
Finally, the presence of water means no need to haul it in.
All in all, it's like a Moon base, only better.
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10ebbor10

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Re: Humans, and eventually a colony on Mars.
« Reply #323 on: January 02, 2013, 08:16:53 am »

Minus 400 degrees is the default temperature in the shadow.
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Sheb

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Re: Humans, and eventually a colony on Mars.
« Reply #324 on: January 02, 2013, 08:50:36 am »

They're so cold they're below the absolute zero? Anyway, heating wouldn't be hard, just have pipe transporting the heat from outside the crater.

Also, how do you propose to terraform Mars? I frankly don't see an easy way to manufacture a breathable athmosphere.
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FearfulJesuit

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Re: Humans, and eventually a colony on Mars.
« Reply #325 on: January 02, 2013, 09:23:05 am »

I haven't seen anyone talk about Europa much yet...assuming we get nuclear fusion, though, Europa would be perfect. It has limitless supplies of energy, and you could build a base anywhere you wanted to (compare to Mercury, where we're limited to a few polar craters). It's small, so the gravity well is not a large problem (according to XKCD, it looks to be about that of the Moon), but, at Moon size, it's big enough that it could be an actual self-sufficient colony with culture and cities rather than just a glorified supply depot. Although other than water it has almost no natural resources, it can draw on the rest of the Jovian moons to get them. (The sci-fi fantasy of lots of small contracters bopping about in tweeny little ships is just that-a fantasy- with distances and gravity wells as large as Earth or Mars. But in Jupiter's orbit, where you're going comparatively short distances to extract resources from moons with small gravity wells, it makes a lot of sense). There are no problems with cosmic rays as it is shielded by Jupiter's magnetic field. Plus, it will serve as a stopping point for any ships going to the beyond.

Ganymede will thrive, too, for the same reasons. There's some evidence that Callisto also has an ocean under the surface, but it'll be much harder to get to.

If I had to make a prediction as to where humanity will be living in the year 3000, maybe 2500 if we're lucky, my list would be:

Earth (assuming we haven't completely shot it to hell; still home to most humans)

Mars (home to a few million, since we won't have finished terraforming yet)

Venus (if in 3000 we've been starting terraforming for, oh, 750 years, we might have...maybe a couple tens of thousands?)

Europa (for the reasons described above, likely to actually have more humans than Mars, maybe ten to twenty million).

Ganymede (probably about the same number as Europa, though colonized a bit later)

And if we really pushed at it, or took another look in 3500, we'd also probably see humans on:
The Moon (main problem: importing water)

Mercury (if only the polar craters; no more than a couple million, probably just a few tens of thousands)

Ganymede (take a bit more work than Europa, but has enough rock to be a bit more self-sufficient for a few raw materials, notably iron and silicon).

Callisto, maybe, but it would take a lot of work, and it might not make as much sense as just spending that development money on an existing colony

Titan (really, really far out, but absolutely full of energy and raw materials. I expect that if not at this point then certainly by 4000 Titan will be one of the big capitals of humanity)

Enceladus (little more than a small colony of Titan; it might not even be colonized)

Triton, mayyyyybe. We kind of forget just how vast these distances are. Mars and Venus are both quite close to the Earth- where the Earth is 1 AU from the sun, Venus is .7 and Mars 1.5 AU. But then distances rapidly increase. If you can get through the asteroid belt, Jupiter and its moons is not that horribly far- it's about 5 AU from the sun. But Saturn is 10 AU away. The thing is that Mars and Venus have a lot of potential and because the distances are short they're cheap to get to. Jupiter and Saturn are far away, but there's a lot of potential in their moons.

Triton has water ice, frozen nitrogen and dry ice, and if it were closer- in Jupiter's orbit- we'd definitely colonize it. But it's 30 AU away, and at that distance, I just don't think so. Or maybe we will, but not until we're going beyond the solar system and need stopping places. But if we need stopping places (ie are not using an Alcubierre drive), that means we're staying relatively close to the Solar System...but where would we be going? There's a planet in the Alpha Centauri system, but it's at a temperature of 1200 C and likely made of magma.

Looking at Wikipedia's list of nearest stars, the nearest real candidate for a habitable planet is Tau Ceti, which might have up to two of them (Tau Ceti e and f). The kicker is that Tau Ceti is twelve light-years away, and at that distance you'll want an Alcubierre drive. That same drive would also allow us to colonize Triton more cheaply, but at some point you have to ask: what's the point? It's likely to be the Space Age equivalent of the Norse colony on Greenland: just off the edge of the civilized world, inhospitable, poor in self-sustaining natural resources, with a very small population, rarely visited and likely to be abandoned as anything more than a gas station if and when we find out that there's much better pickings beyond it (North America, Tau Ceti), and if we're using a warp drive, as we most assuredly will be, it won't even get gas station status (unless it turns out that Alcubierre drives are best switched on where there's no danger of running into somewhere inhabitable; in that case Triton will be the launch point for many a mission).

There is one problem we'll run into for a lot of these- carbon. We'll need to import carbon onto the moon, Europa and (possibly) Ganymede. That's why Titan will be such a boon- there's carbon, nitrogen, and water all over the place.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2013, 09:28:42 am by dhokarena56 »
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Scoops Novel

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Re: Humans, and eventually a colony on Mars.
« Reply #326 on: January 02, 2013, 09:30:07 am »

The thing about Europa is that it's too hospitable. There's a good chance of life there, and even without it being fairly obvious investigation would be insisted on unless absolutely necessary. Also, limitless supply's of energy? Whereforth do you draw that conclusion?
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Sheb

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Re: Humans, and eventually a colony on Mars.
« Reply #327 on: January 02, 2013, 09:31:43 am »

Still, what's the point? America was colonized because we could get stuff back to Europe and because we needed more room. We're unlikely to hit the point where it's cheaper to get real estate on Mars than on Earth (You could revert desertification on large part of the globe, or just beat the sea back, Dutch-style.)

So this leave ressources. Maybe He3 on the Moon if we ever get fusion working, and we can expect asteroid mining, possibly with a Moon base to refine them before moving the materials to Earth.

Also, how can one terraform a planet like Mars?
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10ebbor10

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Re: Humans, and eventually a colony on Mars.
« Reply #328 on: January 02, 2013, 09:48:39 am »

Still, what's the point? America was colonized because we could get stuff back to Europe and because we needed more room. We're unlikely to hit the point where it's cheaper to get real estate on Mars than on Earth (You could revert desertification on large part of the globe, or just beat the sea back, Dutch-style.)

So this leave ressources. Maybe He3 on the Moon if we ever get fusion working, and we can expect asteroid mining, possibly with a Moon base to refine them before moving the materials to Earth.

Also, how can one terraform a planet like Mars?
Mars colonization will probably be different. Much slower, and mostly just because we can.

The famous 1500 year plan.

The thing about Europa is that it's too hospitable. There's a good chance of life there, and even without it being fairly obvious investigation would be insisted on unless absolutely necessary. Also, limitless supply's of energy? Whereforth do you draw that conclusion?
He's talking about fusion. The gasgiants have a ridiculous supply of deuterium, tritium and He-3 in the athmospheres.

I haven't seen anyone talk about Europa much yet...assuming we get nuclear fusion, though, Europa would be perfect. It has limitless supplies of energy, and you could build a base anywhere you wanted to (compare to Mercury, where we're limited to a few polar craters). It's small, so the gravity well is not a large problem (according to XKCD, it looks to be about that of the Moon), but, at Moon size, it's big enough that it could be an actual self-sufficient colony with culture and cities rather than just a glorified supply depot. Although other than water it has almost no natural resources, it can draw on the rest of the Jovian moons to get them. (The sci-fi fantasy of lots of small contracters bopping about in tweeny little ships is just that-a fantasy- with distances and gravity wells as large as Earth or Mars. But in Jupiter's orbit, where you're going comparatively short distances to extract resources from moons with small gravity wells, it makes a lot of sense). There are no problems with cosmic rays as it is shielded by Jupiter's magnetic field. Plus, it will serve as a stopping point for any ships going to the beyond.

Europa has an average temperature of 100 Kelvin, and is only partly shielded, though flare risk there is small.

Ganymede will thrive, too, for the same reasons. There's some evidence that Callisto also has an ocean under the surface, but it'll be much harder to get to.

If I had to make a prediction as to where humanity will be living in the year 3000, maybe 2500 if we're lucky, my list would be:

Earth (assuming we haven't completely shot it to hell; still home to most humans)

Mars (home to a few million, since we won't have finished terraforming yet)

Venus (if in 3000 we've been starting terraforming for, oh, 750 years, we might have...maybe a couple tens of thousands?)
Venusian terraforming estimate is 100 years untill we get a breathable, survivable athmosphere. Pressure will remain unchanged.

Europa (for the reasons described above, likely to actually have more humans than Mars, maybe ten to twenty million).

Ganymede (probably about the same number as Europa, though colonized a bit later)

And if we really pushed at it, or took another look in 3500, we'd also probably see humans on:
The Moon (main problem: importing water)
99% efficiency recycling systems, water deposits have been found.

Mercury (if only the polar craters; no more than a couple million, probably just a few tens of thousands)
Radiation. Adding to that the craters are not that big. You can't build on the entire crater, just on the sides, because the largest part of the crater still recieves sunlight.

Ganymede (take a bit more work than Europa, but has enough rock to be a bit more self-sufficient for a few raw materials, notably iron and silicon).

Callisto, maybe, but it would take a lot of work, and it might not make as much sense as just spending that development money on an existing colony

Titan (really, really far out, but absolutely full of energy and raw materials. I expect that if not at this point then certainly by 4000 Titan will be one of the big capitals of humanity)

Enceladus (little more than a small colony of Titan; it might not even be colonized)

Triton, mayyyyybe. We kind of forget just how vast these distances are. Mars and Venus are both quite close to the Earth- where the Earth is 1 AU from the sun, Venus is .7 and Mars 1.5 AU. But then distances rapidly increase. If you can get through the asteroid belt, Jupiter and its moons is not that horribly far- it's about 5 AU from the sun. But Saturn is 10 AU away. The thing is that Mars and Venus have a lot of potential and because the distances are short they're cheap to get to. Jupiter and Saturn are far away, but there's a lot of potential in their moons.
The asteroid belt is not a problem. You'd have to aim for an asteroid to hit it. And yeah, travel times to the moons are ridunculous.


Triton has water ice, frozen nitrogen and dry ice, and if it were closer- in Jupiter's orbit- we'd definitely colonize it. But it's 30 AU away, and at that distance, I just don't think so. Or maybe we will, but not until we're going beyond the solar system and need stopping places. But if we need stopping places (ie are not using an Alcubierre drive), that means we're staying relatively close to the Solar System...but where would we be going? There's a planet in the Alpha Centauri system, but it's at a temperature of 1200 C and likely made of magma.
There are other planets in the Centauri system at well, some which may be habitable/have habitable moons.

Looking at Wikipedia's list of nearest stars, the nearest real candidate for a habitable planet is Tau Ceti, which might have up to two of them (Tau Ceti e and f). The kicker is that Tau Ceti is twelve light-years away, and at that distance you'll want an Alcubierre drive. That same drive would also allow us to colonize Triton more cheaply, but at some point you have to ask: what's the point? It's likely to be the Space Age equivalent of the Norse colony on Greenland: just off the edge of the civilized world, inhospitable, poor in self-sustaining natural resources, with a very small population, rarely visited and likely to be abandoned as anything more than a gas station if and when we find out that there's much better pickings beyond it (North America, Tau Ceti), and if we're using a warp drive, as we most assuredly will be, it won't even get gas station status (unless it turns out that Alcubierre drives are best switched on where there's no danger of running into somewhere inhabitable; in that case Triton will be the launch point for many a mission).

Unless we find exotic matter, it's highly unlikely warp will be a reality.

There is one problem we'll run into for a lot of these- carbon. We'll need to import carbon onto the moon, Europa and (possibly) Ganymede. That's why Titan will be such a boon- there's carbon, nitrogen, and water all over the place.

They're so cold they're below the absolute zero? Anyway, heating wouldn't be hard, just have pipe transporting the heat from outside the crater.

Also, how do you propose to terraform Mars? I frankly don't see an easy way to manufacture a breathable athmosphere.
Dammit. Yeah, I hate it when people mess with the wikis. Real temperature is about 80 Kelvin

And again, the 1500 year plan.
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FearfulJesuit

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Re: Humans, and eventually a colony on Mars.
« Reply #329 on: January 02, 2013, 10:28:54 am »

Can you provide a link to an in-depth explanation of the 1500 year plan?
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