Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[GlyphGryph]

Did you get an acceptable answer?

Also, crazy deja vu, but I feel like we've had what amounts to this exact same exchange about a different topic at some point in the past. If that's true (and I'm not just crazy), it might be best for me to avoid discussing serious issues with you - there's clearly a bad chemistry going on.

Regardless, if the things I claimed were all untrue, I apologize, and bow out. There were other posters though, and many explanations - hopefully you found the information you were looking for.

[Thecard]

Jumpin' on the train with Misky.
LAST.  MAYBE.  HOPEFULLY NOT BUT MAYBE LAST.

[Shakerag]

But that doesn't mean we should cause unnecessary death and/or pain to them.  I mean, I'd save a human over an animal any day, but I wouldn't torture anything.  Including plants.
Why do people always forget about plants?

Given that people can obviously survive on a vegan diet and not suffer from malnutrition, what constitutes necessary death and/or pain to non-humans, then?  I ask this from a genuinely curious viewpoint, not one of being preachy. 

Outside of self/other-defense, I suppose. 

[Thecard]

But that doesn't mean we should cause unnecessary death and/or pain to them.  I mean, I'd save a human over an animal any day, but I wouldn't torture anything.  Including plants.
Why do people always forget about plants?

Given that people can obviously survive on a vegan diet and not suffer from malnutrition, what constitutes necessary death and/or pain to non-humans, then?  I ask this from a genuinely curious viewpoint, not one of being preachy. 

Outside of self/other-defense, I suppose.

I mean like the Native American tribes treated the buffalo.  They used what they needed, and didn't hunt for fun.  I think we can eat meat (should, really, that's why it's there) but I don't like sport-hunting.  I also don't like when animals are pretty much tortured because it saves companies space/time/money.  I'm not as upset about it as I am about unfair treatment of humans, though.
Still am upset about it. 

[King DZA]

But that doesn't mean we should cause unnecessary death and/or pain to them.  I mean, I'd save a human over an animal any day, but I wouldn't torture anything.  Including plants.
Why do people always forget about plants?

Given that people can obviously survive on a vegan diet and not suffer from malnutrition, what constitutes necessary death and/or pain to non-humans, then?  I ask this from a genuinely curious viewpoint, not one of being preachy. 

Outside of self/other-defense, I suppose. 

Because in my eyes, a strictly vegan diet seems horribly unfair to many forms of plantlife. I'm an omnivore, and I shall devour all of my beloved Earth-kin as equals!

[Hanslanda]

But that doesn't mean we should cause unnecessary death and/or pain to them.  I mean, I'd save a human over an animal any day, but I wouldn't torture anything.  Including plants.
Why do people always forget about plants?

Given that people can obviously survive on a vegan diet and not suffer from malnutrition, what constitutes necessary death and/or pain to non-humans, then?  I ask this from a genuinely curious viewpoint, not one of being preachy. 

Outside of self/other-defense, I suppose. 

Because in my eyes, a strictly vegan diet seems horribly unfair to many forms of plantlife. I'm an omnivore, and I shall devour all of my beloved Earth-kin as equals!

Kryten in Red Dwarf said, "Oh, you're eating that man we found. I mean, why wouldn't people eat other people if they eat chickens? Then they're just... Picking on the chickens."

Cannibalism is non-discriminatory. Non-cannibalism... IS RACIST.

[Frumple]

Wouldn't that be more along the lines of speciesist? I guess vegetarianism would be, hrm. Kingdomist? Looks like that's about right.

[Darvi]

Non-cannibalism... IS RACIST.

Speciesist, Hans. Keep your bigots straight.

[Mr Space Cat]

Dayum, this is a deep thread of conversation. I think I'm getting a headache from thinking too hard. I'mma go pop some painkillers and watch a season of Jersey Shore, I need to stop thinking for a while.

In all seriousness now, debating just what the value of a life is is a really vast thing. There's so many variables and different interpretations of such a topic.

Personally, I feel there's several main factors to determine the value of a human mind/life.

1) Does the individual in question value their life? This is probably the biggest factor.
2) Do others value the individual's life?
3) Does the individual actively pursue interests and achievements, however you might define such, in any shape or form?
4) Does the individual and their peers also value these achievements?

Sure, this is vague, but the topic itself is incredibly vague and hard to define.

As to the suicide topic I brought up, I don't understand how "forcing the suicidal to not want to kill themselves" could help. Making such "help" "mandatory" would in all likelihood only generate resentment towards the help simply because the help is "forced" on them and not provided out of appreciation for their life.

As for actually committing suicide, generally the individual would have at least been thinking of the action for a while. Sure, there are cases where people just kill themselves in the heat of the moment, but there's hardly much help that could've been found for those cases.
----------------------------------------------------
Also, the ultimate reason we question the morality of killing is because we have no idea what happens when we die. No one knows for sure until they themselves die. Even if someone came back as a ghost, and tried to spread the word to the world about what death really was, there would always be some doubt, disbelief, and the fear of the unknown that would be death.

If we knew for a scientific fact that when one dies their mind travels to another dimension and becomes a free floating form of sentient gas and was free to ponder all the mysteries of the universe for eternity and ultimately transcend humanity, would we be so afraid of death? Would we still hold killers to be detestable monsters?

[Urist_McDrowner]

Are you exempt from that? After all, you are killing people as societies revenge.

I am not. I kill if they are an active threat, or resisting too much for me to subdue them and apprehend them if they have killed.

Despite the fact that you are an active threat to them.

I am not. My apprehension is conducive with justice, and probably won't result in their death.

[Hanslanda]

Non-cannibalism... IS RACIST.

Speciesist, Hans. Keep your bigots straight.

I keep trying, but EVERYONE is Hanssexual, so they keep convert- Oh, wait. Not that kind of straight? Not that kind of straight.

On topic:
It is indeed a rather deep conversation. I also agree that forcing anything on someone that is suicidal is FAR more likely to be harmful than helpful.

[Thecard]

Non-cannibalism... IS RACIST.

Speciesist, Hans. Keep your bigots straight.

But... Gay bigots are the best bigots!  Alright?  So don't go judging my bigots, just because they're gay cannibalistic vegan bigots.  Yeah, they're plants.  Don't judge, they were born that way.  Like Gaga, but with spores!  And chlorophyll.
Also, there were probably less bees involved in Lady Gaga's conception.  But I guess I wasn't there, so I can't be too sure.

[Reudh]

Post to watch, and...

My two cents:

I'm fine with killing for let's say... defense. If I am attacked by someone with lethal force, I will use lethal force in return.

If someone attacks me with non-lethal force, I would only aim to remove the threat without killing the person.

If an animal attacks me with intent to kill, I will kill it.

If I am hungry and my only option is to kill an animal, I will kill an animal and attempt to utilise as much of the animal as possible. I do not think the practice of finning a shark is a good thing.

[lordcooper]

I'd rather be killed than kill anything else intentionally.

[Gamerlord]

I'd rather be killed than kill anything else intentionally.

The genepool bids you farewell, pacifist!