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[MaximumZero]

I'm gonna go ahead and watch this space. Eyes on the competition, and all that.

[Majestic7]

When it comes to old-style games, I recommend Lamentations of the Flame Princess. It is a little... gore-heavy with horror elements, though. Dungeon Crawl Classics seemed workable too, based on a couple of sessions.

What comes to 4th Edition, it is very...tabletop. Everything is neatly defined and the game feels very much like a game. It leaves little for narratives and is a lot like a figurine-based squad war game, pretty much. Some people like it for the very fact it feels like a tabletop MMORPG regarding many mechanics. Some people hate it for the very fact.

Pathfinder is stuck in where 3.5 was; the changes are very minor and cosmetic. Same mathematical problems as in the original remain. I think they've fallen hosage to their audience. They are afraid to make changes because the fan base is so extremely conservative. I was in a convention where Eric Mona talked about this and was sorry about the fact, since it limits their options. Basically, if you love D&D 3.5, Pathfinder gives more in the exactly same format, pretty much. Pathfinder surpassed 4th Edition as the most selling RPG some time ago.

I'm curious about 5th Edition and hope it turns out to be pretty light. D&D is THE brand for roleplaying games, whether people like it or not. Thus I really hope the next edition can reinvigorate the player base and bring in new people. Many of them will eventually migrate to other systems and games. If their first experience with the market leader is a negative one due to complicated rules or other reasons, they might be turned off from the whole hobby.

[LeoLeonardoIII]

Oh, and I will say too, that I find the local gamers advertising their games in Seattle-Tacoma-Olympia seem to vastly favor Pathfinder  and 4e. I don't know why. Maybe it's a reporting bias, that other gamers don't advertise as much (although I don't see why except if I went out on some limbs). So check your local game shop for its bulletin board, check NearbyGamers, Meetup.com, and RPGGameFind and see what people near you are playing. Maybe that would make the choice for you.

[LeoLeonardoIII]

What comes to 4th Edition, it is very...tabletop. Everything is neatly defined and the game feels very much like a game. It leaves little for narratives and is a lot like a figurine-based squad war game, pretty much. Some people like it for the very fact it feels like a tabletop MMORPG regarding many mechanics. Some people hate it for the very fact.

This was what I was talking about - while I agree with Majestic I also feel that you can play a 4e campaign with lots of roleplaying and exploration and stuff. Heck, you could write up some rules for organic whale-submarines that fire octopus marines at each other, or rules for currying favor and eliminating enemies in the Fairy Court. The DM just needs to look at the rules and figure out what bones he needs to break to get the game to work how he wants. But 4e doesn't explicitly support that.

There's an argument out there that a game is about what its rules are about. But there aren't any rules for bluffing in poker.

[Majestic7]

Sure, you can roleplay even with Carcassone or Magic the Gathering. Some systems just work better doing certain things. Sometimes its easier to switch than try to force a system to do something it wasn't meant to do. 

There's an argument out there that a game is about what its rules are about. But there aren't any rules for bluffing in poker.

I'm stealing that line, even though I don't think it applies 100%. I think the amount of attention given to certain rules states how much the designers think they'll be used. Thus it says they are necessary/useful for a game. I can see this influencing how people run games.

[LeoLeonardoIII]

True, but there are other reasons to emphasize certain rules. I think the combat rules in D&D get the most attention because (1) combat has immediate dire consequences, (2) combat can be more complex than negotiation or fire-building for example because there are so many things going on at once and so many variables, (3) combat is assumed to happen regularly in the game. Basically there are rules for combat so it doesn't become a Cops and Robbers "I totally got you" "No man you missed" fiasco.

Then again, I admit that procedural police work is rarely a component in a game of Cops and Robbers, just like cattle driving is rarely a part of Cowboys and Indians.

By the way, I pretty much stole that line from Zak's D&D With Pornstars blog. [Citation granted!]

[catoblepas]

I have had a bit of a problem with 4e's focus on special abilities. There are so many of them that I get the impression that it is somewhat diluting of what makes the classes unique by giving everyone access to what seems a lot like spells at times. Somehow when looking at parts of 4e (haven't bought it, just my impression from the bits I have seen) It makes me wonder if it is a supposed to come off like a superhero game. I also don't like what they did with Forgotten realms in 4th edition either-it pretty much removes the chance that I would ever play another Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, or Icewind Dale if they came out.

Mostly I just play 3.5 now, although I am looking into other systems, like Pathfinder, GURPS, and the Star Trek rpg.I heard ACKS mentioned here, which is soemthign I'll have to keep an eye peeled for, I have heard it mentioned before.

[LeoLeonardoIII]

Oh and by the way, the FR lore has always been totally bloated and the "big events that ruin the setting just to validate game rule changes" have happened before. At one point millions of Cavaliers in the world became Fighters at once for no good reason.

Undermountain is the dungeon that started with "a mad wizard did it" but never, not once, ever skimmed the full gonzo potential of that premise. I'd run Undermountain with a TON more human connections to the surface (basements of guildhalls and wizard's towers, lower crypts and vaults of temples, abandoned prison depths, gangs of thieves, obscure cultists, etc) and a TON more batshit-insane stuff. Basically, Halaster is the DM and anything you want to throw in there is fair game. I'd say it's almost an ideal dungeon setting because depending on the group's preferences you can make it anything.

Then again, unless you want a fairly bland dungeon crawl of disconnected content and a fairly poor dungeon map, the published materials aren't much more than a spur to your creativity. You're really better off stepping into Halaster's shoes and putting pencil to graph paper.

Then again, there's something to be said for a newly-discovered dungeon, fresh for plunder. But that's less interesting because you lack the conflict with human-types, easy access to the city above, and the palimpsests of everyone's explorations there as a result of the first two.

No idea how this totally became an Undermountain post but there ya go.

My questions for the 5e beta testers:

1: How well does it support dungeon adventure?
2: How well does it support wilderness adventure (including underwater, aerial, naval)?
3: How well does it support extraplanar adventure?
4: Are there mass combat rules (including siege, army management)?
5: Are there domain rules (including investment in business)?
6: Are there henchman rules (including morale, loyalty, gaining levels)?
7: Can you fit a 1st level PC on both sides of a 3"x5" index card, including equipment / magic items / spellbook / etc? Not writing super tiny, just normal handwriting.

[burned]

I skipped any discussion about alignments, but I did read through the thread before this post.

OK, since this is a somewhat D&D related thread, I shall ask these:
First off, which D&D version is best (I'm asking for opinions here.)
Second, is there some sort of online D&D manual, or would I have to buy them?

First Answer: B/X D&D



Second Answer: Free PDF Retroclone of B/X D&D

Alrighty, I'm gonna go for the 4e manual.

No! I came in too late! ;]

I dont have much hope for D&D Next.

I appreciate the train wreck that WotC is providing.

[Werdna]

FWIW, my opinion for the worst and the best:



That was my first version (aka "blue book" basic), where Fighters were Fighting Men and wizards were Magic Users.  Dice?  Try a laminated sheet that you cut into 'chits', and randomly selected from a dixie cup (my first non-airplane model purchase at a hobby store was dice*).  As a 10 year old, I couldn't make head or tails of the rules (and they'd probably still be laughable to an adult).  However, that cover art was plenty enough fuel for the imagination, and I found you could still have a lot of fun if you just ignored most of the rules and made it up as you went.  Which, in hindsight, is a pretty damn good lesson to learn and is pretty much true to some degree, for any system.

Overall, I agree with Burned, that run of Basic I seem to recall had the slickest and easiest rule set.  Also loaded with great Erol Otis art.

* still have them; the 20 sided die is so worn on the edges that it will roll nearly forever and half the numbers are unreadable.  It was marked 0-9 twice so you had to paint half of them; I used my mom's nail polish.  I found that with an extra thick coating opposite the 1, I was able to make the die never roll a 1.  >  If a player was having a rough night with rolls, I'd let him use it.

[burned]

That was my first version (aka "blue book" basic), where Fighters were Fighting Men and wizards were Magic Users.

Ha! This was just released: BLUEHOLME Prentice Rules
And, just like the Holmes edition, it only covers 1-3rd levels. ;]

Overall, I agree with Burned, that run of Basic I seem to recall had the slickest and easiest rule set.  Also loaded with great Erol Otis art.

You recall correctly.

As an aside, Erol Otus art enhances any RPG book. I totally dig the new Swords & Wizardry cover.

[BishopX]

My questions for the 5e beta testers:

1: How well does it support dungeon adventure?
2: How well does it support wilderness adventure (including underwater, aerial, naval)?
3: How well does it support extraplanar adventure?
4: Are there mass combat rules (including siege, army management)?
5: Are there domain rules (including investment in business)?
6: Are there henchman rules (including morale, loyalty, gaining levels)?
7: Can you fit a 1st level PC on both sides of a 3"x5" index card, including equipment / magic items / spellbook / etc? Not writing super tiny, just normal handwriting.

1: Better than 3.5...there's more of a focus on pacing and deciding how far you can go today and the rules are light enough to allow a lot of spontaniety of action (more so than older D&D atleast). There is a now a short rest/long rest setup where you can pause an unlimted number of times to rest for a little bit which allows you to naturally heal from a daily pool of hit dice but you can only gain the benefit of an 8 hour rest once per day, no more fight/sleep/fight. The rest also allow some wonderful moments oportunities to force the PCs to react to stuff in th dungeon rather constantly being on the prowl.
 

2)Characters now hove background trait which give you some ways of tying characters into the social fabric of a psuedo medevil europe. For example characters with the noble background can reasonably expect food & lodging from the gentry as long as they're not an ass, and peasants can expect some aid and comfort from the serfs. The concept of skill ranks have been eliminated, most skills are now just ability checks. If you have training to the skill it's just a bonus. This means that's easy to crack open the skill system and add new skills (What, no swim skill? I guess it's just a STR check now... but on the other hand you could easily have a skill : deep sea diving).  In terms of the really exotic activties...the rules arn't as built up as previous versions...you can do it but you're going to be holding onto the seat of your pants the whole time. This might change as the ruleset matures as well. It certainly did for 3.5

3) The last version I used only went to level 10 and the spell list was still skimpy. It's definately there but there isn't much meat yet.

4) No, not that I can recall.

5) Not really, yet.

6) Morale...not really the assumption is they'll leave if you mistreat them. There's no system here, just DM judgement which is how it should be. LEveling them up uses the standard NPC stuff and works reasonably well.

7) Easily unless you're stupid and buy one of every item costing less than 1 gp...
6 stats, 1 AC number, a couple of weapon lines, 1 background, 1 specialty (think feat), maybe two skills, demographic info, items and no more than 5 spells.

[LeoLeonardoIII]

That's good, in general. I'd expect they're still working on stuff and maybe the 4-5 stuff will come in an expansion. I'm happy about 7. 1 made me think of healing surges and the effort to (a) reverse the 15-minute adventuring day where people flee the dungeon after every fight to rest up, and (b) prevent the Cleric player from feeling like all his spells have to be healing. I'm not sure there's a problem in either, just how the game is run.

For example, if the players fight and flee to rest up, they won't make much progress. Intelligent monsters will make preparations while they're gone, which will make breaking back in to the same part more difficult. Anything to encourage the more effective method of adventuring, which is to conserve resources until they're really needed.

After all, 4e potentially has the same problem, with players using their Dailies to alpha-strike the first fight they find and then flee to recover. From what you said, players could do the same thing in 5e with daily resources like short rests. Do you guys think that seems like the case?

I've seen suggestions in OSR blogs a over a year ago to consider HP as your fighting ability, heroism, and stamina. You recover those really easily, like in a 10 minute rest (sound familiar?). If you get hurt to 0 HP you suffer some specific injury like limb damage or something, possibly death, which are harder to heal. This changes the resource of HP from something that you manage over the course of the adventure to something you manage during a "scene" which might just be one fight or several encounters if you don't have a chance to rest. Tie spell use to HP, or use a separate Spell Points system which recovers the same way, instead of memorization - suddenly there's no 15-minute adventuring day.

Unfortunately, by effectively removing HP as a medium-term resource, you remove an element of gameplay strategy. Another person might say by doing so you simplify the gameplay which could be more fun. And you still have the possibility of a 1st level someone getting hit by an axe and dying (pretty unlikely), or having a limb hacked into (fairly unlikely) which I think is pretty darn important. If you want tough beginning adventurer PCs then start everyone at level 3, but you shouldn't have to stab an orc ten times to drop it. You also still have the possibility of wounded people staying wounded for days or requiring magical healing, because they went below 0.

Heck, I might try that houserule the next time I DM a game.

But for some reason, healing surges / limited short rests just feel like a stopgap measure to fix a subsystem that's either working fine but not being played right, or working poorly because people don't like to play that way. Feels like a great place to put in two rules (maybe labeling one as Optional) and letting people decide. Of course, doing that means you can't just have a magic item that gives extra short rests or affects the short rest roll, or affects the wound-causing roll: it would have to touch on both rules OR it could apply to an element they have in common (reducing the length of a short rest, giving bonus buffer HP, healing HP). So it could still work but would require some finesse in game design.

[Sensei]

Bump! Thought I'd raise the thread.

[Neyvn]

So been thinking of moving my group to DnD Next...
Anyone actually DMing anything yet in this new system? Got any suggestions for some modules or adventures to get into a flow?
Or heck, know where I could get the "Murder in Baldur's Gate" in PDF form, paid or *Cough*...