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Author Topic: "DnD Next": Dungeons and Dragons 5th Edition. Starter set is out!  (Read 58401 times)

Neonivek

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Re: "DnD Next": Dungeons and Dragons 5th Edition
« Reply #75 on: December 26, 2012, 11:23:08 pm »

4e is so dramatically different then 3.5 you could consider them entirely different systems.

Oooh I just remember another genuin improvement 4e made. Adding "Slow kills" to replace instant kills.

I really hope that makes a come back.
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timferius

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Re: "DnD Next": Dungeons and Dragons 5th Edition
« Reply #76 on: December 26, 2012, 11:26:56 pm »

4e is so dramatically different then 3.5 you could consider them entirely different systems.

Oooh I just remember another genuin improvement 4e made. Adding "Slow kills" to replace instant kills.

I really hope that makes a come back.

I'm not sure how much I can talk about this (don't get the NDA on a free access document, but whatever) but they have several death systems they're testing in the current document, but they all revolve around that slower death cycle (yay!) instead of the old -10 hp system, which meant almost everything would instakill you.
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Org

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Re: "DnD Next": Dungeons and Dragons 5th Edition
« Reply #77 on: December 26, 2012, 11:28:33 pm »

I enjoy 4e; 4e is relatively simple and pretty fun and pretty balanced. It's also a bit easier from a DM standpoint, at least for me.
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Neonivek

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Re: "DnD Next": Dungeons and Dragons 5th Edition
« Reply #78 on: December 26, 2012, 11:29:42 pm »

I mean it isn't like I'd hate the old instant death system entirely (mind you I don't give it much grade)

I just found the 4e slow death system to be fun and something even more dramatic. Like the time we fought in a room full of medusas and we were slowly turning into stone. With penelties for becoming petrified along the way.
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Gunner-Chan

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Re: "DnD Next": Dungeons and Dragons 5th Edition
« Reply #79 on: December 26, 2012, 11:41:39 pm »

Yes, but the thing is, asking whether something like TES is better than COD or final fantasy is a subjective question, too.

The problem is like Neonivek said. They're different enough that the question becomes pointless. Just like the question if TES is better than CoD.

My suggestion is go to the wizards page and dig through the 3.5 SRD. If it seems appealing as is you may enjoy 3.5 or Pathfinder. If it seems a  bit convoluted or you want something with more options on average for combat you might enjoy 4th edition more.

But really if you can go anywhere that sells the books, just go there and read a bit through the players handbooks if you can get away with it.
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ThtblovesDF

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Re: "DnD Next": Dungeons and Dragons 5th Edition
« Reply #80 on: December 27, 2012, 03:34:42 am »

I started my utterly new group with 3.5 Pathfinder, Intro-edition with some house rules to make it smoother:

-Normal ammo is assumed to always be "around" - no arrow counting, except when they are special
-Food is assumed to be bought/used as needed - also less counting
-Circumstance bonus or mali are done on my end, so I will say "You gain a height advantage and your strike lands true...." instead of saying "You get +2 for height"  - this is to keep the flow and immersion a little more.
-No numbers are given, only words - bloody means he/she/it is half dead, other then that I'll let you know how much it hurt or didn't do anything.
-Florian may only show up to the table sober

I'm changing to 4th soon, because I honestly just really enjoy the cards and how they ease overview over what you have and don't have left.
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chaoticag

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Re: "DnD Next": Dungeons and Dragons 5th Edition
« Reply #81 on: December 27, 2012, 08:18:19 am »

Well, when it comes to combat, 4th edition in general cuts down on the dice rolls and keeping track of stats, and keeps away from players dying to a lucky crit at early levels. Your rules sound pretty newby friendly as is, but if you don't already, have some premade characters if you're expecting new players who are also new to the hobby. That way, if they don't want to roll up some new characters, or are to confused about it, you can pass it on. All they'd need to fill in are the personal touches. If you want to take it a step farther, you can prebake some story hooks onto each character sheet, and let them know what to pick from, since "Barbarian who was left in a blizzard for a crime he didn't commit" is better than  "Barbarian".

And for fourth edition, do encourage your players to take into consideration the other player's characters. What tends to break 4th edition has always been less about builds, and more about party composition. Too little leaders is fatal, but a cohesive party can take on enemies 4 levels above them regularly.

Also, people give the essentials line crap, but if you have any of those books around, it can help transitioning from Pathfinder to  4th edition. (I'd also be willing to bet it'd also help transitioning from 4th to Next, but never tried that system out.)
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chaoticag

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Re: "DnD Next": Dungeons and Dragons 5th Edition
« Reply #82 on: December 27, 2012, 08:44:24 am »

Not always. It's generally not something you'd want to bog down gameplay with, unless you have a good reason to. When your ranger runs out of ammo, he just sort of becomes a deadweight if he didn't mean to spend feats to fight in melee combat. With food, you can enforce that, but it adds more bookkeeping to the game, and then your wizards/clerics get create food, and all is invalidated.

Really, it's only worth keeping track of things if it fits the theme of what you're running, or if you want to set  timer on how many times a party can rest in a dungeon. It's not a problem, it's a tool.
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Werdna

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Re: "DnD Next": Dungeons and Dragons 5th Edition
« Reply #83 on: December 28, 2012, 03:45:18 pm »

Not always. It's generally not something you'd want to bog down gameplay with, unless you have a good reason to. When your ranger runs out of ammo, he just sort of becomes a deadweight if he didn't mean to spend feats to fight in melee combat. With food, you can enforce that, but it adds more bookkeeping to the game, and then your wizards/clerics get create food, and all is invalidated.

Really, it's only worth keeping track of things if it fits the theme of what you're running, or if you want to set  timer on how many times a party can rest in a dungeon. It's not a problem, it's a tool.

Seriously, this.  At some point players reach a "big boy" level where they can manage their own equipment and shop for  replenishment (its as simple as crossing off some gold on your sheet and adding some more ammo/food), so the DM can focus on providing a fun story instead of checking quarrels off your sheet for you.  DM's "have a problem remembering food and ammo" because there's a zillion other more important things they have to remember.  You're either big boy players that help take up what parts of the campaign load that you can, or you're part of the burden.
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chaoticag

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Re: "DnD Next": Dungeons and Dragons 5th Edition
« Reply #84 on: December 28, 2012, 04:52:14 pm »

Fun fact, there used to be online versions of 4th edition, then PHB2 leaked, and wizards discontinued it. Also, if you can find a friendly local game store, you can get your hands on a copy of third edition, although from what I understand, Pathfinder has more of that feel too.
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Gunner-Chan

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Re: "DnD Next": Dungeons and Dragons 5th Edition
« Reply #85 on: December 28, 2012, 05:02:00 pm »

It means you need a physical copy, since Wizards doesn't offer PDFs anymore.

Well there's still ways to get PDFs but that's not for this board.
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Grakelin

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Re: "DnD Next": Dungeons and Dragons 5th Edition
« Reply #86 on: December 30, 2012, 07:48:19 am »

Discontinuing PDFs sounds like another horrible business idea. As if not making them commercially available prevents people from pirating RPG books. When I was 13, I had a PDF copy of VTM which proves the theory wrong, as do my PDF versions of Fading Suns First Edition, Pendragon 3rd Edition, and Classic Traveller. It is surprisingly difficult to find pirated copies of Outbreak: Undead, however, which appears to have shifted out of print availability and into digital sales entirely. It is much easier to find anything 4th Edition related illegally, however. In fact, it's easier, since our physical copies don't have watermarks on them - anybody with a scanner can upload a PDF of their favourite D&D manual without fear of reprisal.

From a corporate standpoint, it's very short-sighted to cancel digital releases. Impulse buys are more probable on the internet, which people frequent constantly, than at a gaming store which people go to once in a while. Distribution costs are lower online than in person. It's just a mistake from start to finish.

Rant aside, you should be able to find 4th Edition anywhere games are sold. Even your local bookstore might have it. It is imperative, if you intend to run the game, that you have access to the DMG and the Monster Manual. 4th Edition cannot be run without the MM. The DMG does not provide instructions for making enemies. Luckily, the books often come in full sets of three.

I'd also find a PDF copy to supplement you after purchasing. It is very useful to be able to CTRL + F terms which are hard to find in the index. I did this with MAGE, and would not have been able to get far without it.
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chaoticag

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Re: "DnD Next": Dungeons and Dragons 5th Edition
« Reply #87 on: December 30, 2012, 12:55:23 pm »

I'll actually go ahead and point out, sales are half of business, investments the other. If your investors are feeling that your putting their investments at risk, they'll pull out, and you end up at a loss anyway, despite being ahead sales-wise.

Also, as far as I know, DnD is practically ubiquitous in the United States, but as far as things go for me, the closest place to purchase a copy of the books was Turkey. That being a few countries away, I just ordered the core books off amazon, and picked up what I felt the must haves were when I went back to the US.

If you like what you find in the core books, the other must haves are the other two PHBs, and if your money is burning a hole in your wallet, the Forgotten realms player's Guide is also good, since it offers a decent class and a warlock option, as well as two races with feats, but you can otherwise pass on the new Forgotten Realms, everyone else does. That should be enough for then, but if you need more there's the X Power books, which detail more options for classes, and pretty much broaden the races that make a decent fit for classes.

And then there's the Essentials line. I know that someone did say they were odd weirdness that didn't belong in the system, but from what I've seen, they work decently. It's a pretty different feel from the past classes, but the races get more ability score options, and a few rebalances. Then again, you can just subscribe to DnD insider and use the compendium for that.
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sambojin

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Re: "DnD Next": Dungeons and Dragons 5th Edition
« Reply #88 on: January 01, 2013, 08:51:34 pm »

Whilst this is not a subject for these forums, I do recommend "previewing" the 4th edition books before purchasing. The word torrent comes into play here. Certainly, if you like the ruleset and think that good adventures can be made from them, then get the hardcovers. In many cases some of the charm of desktop RPGs is to not have a laptop in front of you, and they were well produced books. But they were a huge step away from what was considered "normal" D&D, almost to the level of strategic, party driven battles, rather than the more role-playing-with-numbers of 2nd-3.5ed.

I previewed 3 and 3.5, then bought several of the books connected to them, so I hope that you understand that I'm not condoning piracy. But a quick read can't hurt.

So many tables with coloured thingo's for skills just mucked with my head in 4th. I'm actually suprised at the lack of PC support with the system, considering how well it would have worked for computer games.

But aside from that, and somewhat back on topic, what do people think of the 5th ed preview, and also it's abilities to make damn fine computer games? Are games like NWN/Baldur's Gate/etc doable under this system easily? With rule changes for real-time, but do people think that this system may be able to be useable for current gen PC RPG games?
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LeoLeonardoIII

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Re: "DnD Next": Dungeons and Dragons 5th Edition
« Reply #89 on: January 16, 2013, 03:32:52 am »

Alrighty, I'm gonna go for the 4e manual.

I'm gonna guess that you can only buy it, and there isn't an online version.
Also, Werdna, are you called Andrew in meatspace?

Werdna is the villain in the old Wizardry games (maybe just the first one?) and yes the Wizardry author's name was Andrew. The other author also had an NPC in the game with a reversed name.

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TL;DR: What I would recommend is for you to download Labyrinth Lord and OSRIC, which are good retro-clones of B/X and 1e respectively. That's a free option and gives you an idea if this thing is gonna fly. If those are too dense, try Microlite20 (stripped-down 3e) or Microlite74 (a gaming style more similar to 0e though the actual rules are on the 3e chassis).

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As for which edition you'd like, I'll reiterate that they're different enough that you could like any of them, and you could have opposite opinions from anyone about one of them. Further, if the DM is willing to houserule and make snap rulings (both of which I personally think are necessary), you can play any edition in any way. But there are a couple reasons I can think of to play a game that encourages the kind of gameplay you want.

A: New players coming in will hear "we're playing 1st edition" and will have certain expectations. If you think you're showing up for a game of Settlers of Catan and everyone's wearing hockey masks you might be perturbed. So if I walk into a game on the first night and it's supposed to be 1st edition but everyone's got power cards and six-page character sheets without any equipment lists, I'm gonna feel like there was a bait-and-switch.

B: The rules help support the DM so he doesn't have to do so much heavy lifting. Again, imagine you're trying to play a WW2 wargame but all you have in front of you is the rules to checkers. With rules for the game you want to play, you won't have to make up so much stuff. You need tools for between-sessions creative stuff and tools to be used at the table.

I'd characterize the editions as follows:

0e: AKA "the little brown books". Three booklets plus a fourth called Chainmail which is a mass-combat game. There are a lot of gaps, but the basic chassis is a nicely stripped-down starting point for a DM who wants to make up new monsters, spells, etc. and create a really memorable and unique game. The Supplement booklets give insight into how Gygax would have you expand your game.

B/X: The initial part of a Basic version of D&D (levels 1-3) ended up expanding into an Expert (4-14), Companion, Master, and Immortal sets (max. level 36). The B/X set is just the Basic set with the Expert expansion. These two sets give you most of the rules you'll need for dungeon and wilderness adventure.

(Make sure you understand WHICH Basic set you're getting. There's two old-school lines and a new one for 4th edition)

RC: The Rules Cyclopedia compiled all the rules from the B/E/C/M/I sets into one book. Like Pathfinder, you can play using just this book. Includes rules for mass warfare, domain management, plane travel, etc. Optional modules within can be used, or not, depending on whether you want the complexity, and without harming the rest of the rules. 

1e: First edition is kind of a refined 0e with all the supplements added. It's a hot sexy mess and the DMG in particular has a LOT of tools for the DM, primarily focused on adventure in the dungeon, wilderness, and city (although offerings by the player community are a lot better in that regard, the book gives a solid framework). No expansions, just more books of monsters and stuff for the DM.

2e: Second edition was meant to refine and clean up 1e. Then they added splatbooks that gave more detail and power for each race and class. You can play without them though, and it's a fine game. The 2e DMG DM advice is a lot more touchy-feely than the 1e DMG, so you might want to read both to get two perspectives. In general, the 2e DMG is less useful as a game aid. I would say that out of everything here, 2e is the least interesting because it didn't push any boundaries or really change much. On the other hand, it's almost 100% compatible with 1e supplements which means you have a huge library of available material you can play with.

2.5e: The Player's Option series is a revision of 2e without splatbooks - or you could look at it as incorporation of the splatbooks into the core rules and set blender to Chop. Character "builds" are important for the first time but you only worry about 1st level - after that you don't choose new powerful abilities and you don't need to worry about what order you pick stuff in as in 3e.

3e: Third edition features very open multi-classing rules (as opposed to earlier rules which prevented PCs of certain races from becoming certain classes, or restricted a class or race due to ability scores. For example, before, a Dwarf couldn't be a Wizard, and if his Strength were too low he couldn't be a Fighter, and in any case his level would be limited). In 3e you also choose abilities as you gain levels, and some abilities require that you have other prerequisites, so you need to plan out your character's progress if you wanted to get cool stuff. If you didn't care about cool stuff, you didn't need to worry about your "build". 3e also worked hard to make DMing easier by giving plenty of guidelines, and gave some good tools in the core rules for making your campaign. There are also splatbooks which expand the game along the same lines (more stuff to plan out, more DM guidelines, a few new tools).

3.5e: They screwed some shit up with 3e and they re-released a lot of books with minor editing to fix a few of the most glaring problems.

4e: I've never played it.

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There are other D&D type games out there.

There are retro-clones of all the early editions of D&D. Some versions of D&D get a treatment from multiple designers so you see how several people would have done it better. These are typically "fantasy heartbreakers" which the writer makes to fulfill a desire to see their favorite game done right. I'd say there's a good dozen worth trying.

ACKS: Adventurer-Conquerer-King is interesting primarily for its take on the "endgame" which is settling down and running a scrap of countryside, or a globe-spanning spy network, or a remote temple, or whatever.

Pathfinder: This is 3.5e rewritten by people who care. If you like 3e you probably like the direction Pathfinder went.

See here for a list of other retro-clones. Note that I've never really heard anything about the ones under "Other Games" but I'd encourage you to check them out if your thirst remains unslaked.

OSR blogs tend to be hit or miss on a post-to-post basis, but some are consistently excellent. I just got The Dungeon Alphabet and Vornheim for xmas and they're very good examples of creative product from the community, usable with any of the above games and more.

And finally, these are just my opinions. I've tried to be neutral but my preferences will bleed through. I grew up on a blend of 1e/2e, tried 3e and thought its heart was in the right place but the implementation was disastrous, dabbled in other stuff.
My game preferences run toward old school sandbox campaigns. I like to see players decide what to do and the plot is the story of what they end up doing, rather than the DM creating a plot and the players have to do that thing (that is, not a railroad).
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