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[zombie urist]

1. Hopefully with better vote counts the first part won't happen. It will be extremely obvious if something does.
2. Lots of accusations and counter accusaitions aren't necessarily a bad thing.
3. Nerjin and Imik weren't really suspected because they got killed before they made any substantial posts. If the day had gone on and they had made more posts, someone might have suspected them.

[Leafsnail]

Votecount (6 votes to lynch):
Dariush:
Tiruin:
Phantom of The Library: notquitethere (1)
Captain Ford: Toaster, Dariush, Deathsword (3)
Edosurist:
Deathsword: obolisk0430 (1)
notquitethere: zombie urist (1)
zombie urist: Captain Ford (1)
Toaster:
obolisk0430:

Not voting: Tiruin, Edosurist, Phantom of the Library (3)

[Teneb]

PFP Leafsnail, you got the count wrong. I am voting for ford.

[Tiruin]

Tiruin, you've been fishing for people's alliances ever since the game began. Why? How does that help you? How does it help the town win?

Let me await obolisk's statement before giving in a (somewhat) controversial post.

Yo Tiriun.  I'm still waiting for this shit.  Deathsword for the reasons I have stated earlier.

Yo, OBOLISK. I prefer you not use expletives in waiting for shit you didn't ask for. Especially when your posting rate is as low as crap, capisce?

If you're just using expletives for the heck of it, don't even dare. Especially if you can't get my username right.

I just posted it, by the way. Up there. Like, here.

Did my mention of your name agitate you?

Mod: I was voting for Ford. Ford, if it got reset.


NQT

Tiruin

I detect a major error here.

Yes but how does scum hunting help us win?

> When it leads to the successful lynching of scum.

Yeah, scumhunting helps in all ways possible. It gives reads on other people, and also aids in their judgement. You're stating a favorable endpoint, but only reached when the facts (or at least the most probable ones), are cleared out by the process stated.

Meaning: you're forgetting that scumhunting helps clear others of being scum. Did you forget that NQT?

I think you over-state how good people are at reading supposed tells. The only solid information we get is from lynching and seeing who gets voted for the lynch and, if scum are lynched, who the scum voted for. By all means we should ask questions, question motives and so on to give a lead on who we should probably lynch next, but the only concrete info comes from kills. By your same reasoning, if we should be in the business of clearing names and getting a read on people, how are meant to do that with non-participating players? I'm beginning to think your reluctance on this point is because you're on the same team as at least one of the lurkers.

...Reluctance = siding with lurkers.

Ew.

How am I even reluctant there? I'm just stating a common thought. If lurkers are scum, they're pretty bad and cowardly players - it is a tactic though, but one frowned on, especially here where lurking translates to utter laziness as scum have no quicktopic.


I poke you, NQT, for I see this tiny snippet here.

[...]but the only concrete info comes from kills.[...]

Who else knows about kills but scum, hmm?

[notquitethere]

Tiruin

...Reluctance = siding with lurkers.

Ew.

How am I even reluctant there? I'm just stating a common thought. If lurkers are scum, they're pretty bad and cowardly players - it is a tactic though, but one frowned on, especially here where lurking translates to utter laziness as scum have no quicktopic.

To answer your counter-questions: no one here has accepted the logic of getting rid of the non-participating players. I was suggesting that some of that reluctance to accept my position on this might be because you (or, I suppose, any of the others) may be on the same team as a lurker. That doesn't mean you're scum (hence why I didn't even FOS you): it might just make you mason. But far be it for me to commit the cardinal sin of speculating on who may or may not be mason.

I poke you, NQT, for I see this tiny snippet here.

[...]but the only concrete info comes from kills.[...]

Who else knows about kills but scum, hmm?

Reading your posts Tiruin is a bit like casting rune stones through an intense fog or drawing a tarot deck while peering through welding glasses or divining fate from bird intestines with hands in rubber gloves: I'm certain that there's meaning there, but it's a bugger to find.

There is only one really useful piece of information that we can read in this game: votes. But votes can be used deceptively. Scum and masons can vote for their team mates as a distancing technique. So the only really really useful piece of information that we have in the game is votes that lead (or could have expected to have lead) to a lynch. As there is only two scum left, we can safely rule out the possibility of them bussing each other. If we keep on lynching until we catch one of the scum, then analyse their voting patterns and the votes against them, then we'll have a good shot at winning this thing.

[Teneb]

There is only one really useful piece of information that we can read in this game: votes. But votes can be used deceptively. Scum and masons can vote for their team mates as a distancing technique. So the only really really useful piece of information that we have in the game is votes that lead (or could have expected to have lead) to a lynch. As there is only two scum left, we can safely rule out the possibility of them bussing each other. If we keep on lynching until we catch one of the scum, then analyse their voting patterns and the votes against them, then we'll have a good shot at winning this thing.

The problem with such a logic is that there is the very real possibility of lynching only town/masons and missing both scum. While a lynch would give some valuable information, we can't lynch for the sake of lynching. That is where scumhunting goes in, it's where you determine who is the scummiest person around and lynch them, and then, with the knowledge of their alignment, examine their posts for any possible connections to other players.

[Toaster]

Concerning metagaming:  I'm not afraid to look for a way to break the game (See: Politibastard) but the chance to look at the game this way hasn't ever come up before.  I'm not going to pass up this opportunity when it comes up, but I'm also not going to advocate any form of chain lynching over it.  That said, the congruence of the Captain Ford factors is not something I can overlook.

In addition, look at this:

Votes after this one did not count.

Not only did Ford make the tie, but he did it 30 minutes prior to the deadline.  If that's not a scum move, I don't know what is.  Minor FoS goes out to Zombie Urist for not breaking it.

The best reason for scum to pick Tolyk? It denies the town an informative lynch. It's why you still want to lynch me. You don't have any more information now than you did yesterday.

Freudian slip- he knows his lynch would be informative.


Tiruin:

But as long as the metainfo is in play, zombie urist was the closest to the lynch, and he's the only one who wasn't posting anywhere else.

Huh what.

Timezones, sir?

Now...this is really confusing. Why would you vote on ZU without any conclusive information  - how is he scum? Ford

This vote is lazy and weak.

Hey, what about we proclaim more activity by gambling eh?

What was the point of this post?  I don't see one.


Deathsword:

From a strategic point of view, it is much more profitable for scum to lynch an active player than a lurker, since it would remove a possible threat. As such, unless scum was really idiotic, Ford would be the best target for the tiebreak, not TolyK. The only reason scum would choose the lurker is if the other target was scum. Thusly, it can be quite easy to deduct one of the possible scum. Ford.

While the "obvious" part of that line of thinking makes sense, it's still WIFOM.


NQT:

I'm not convinced this meta-game way of playing is the way forward, after all, the scum could have called in the hit in advance at any point since the last day or so, or if leafsnail is correct and the deadline was a day earlier than some of us thought, then the scum could have conceivably done it then. But I like your ace detective skills and scumhunting moxy, and you may have something there on the tie-breaking, though obviously Ford has a strong incentive not to let himself hang. Though, in breaking the tie he gave power to the scum- which could be interpreted as weakly pro-scum, but maybe we shouldn't get carried away with this line of reasoning.

If the scum can call it in advance, why even have the post I quoted above where he said any mafioso can break the tie?

Also, don't buddy me.


Zombie U:

Also, the best strategy to win is scumhunting. I don't see how lurkers stop lynches.

Maybe you should try it sometime.

[Captain Ford]

Toaster:

Concerning metagaming:  I'm not afraid to look for a way to break the game (See: Politibastard) but the chance to look at the game this way hasn't ever come up before.  I'm not going to pass up this opportunity when it comes up, but I'm also not going to advocate any form of chain lynching over it.  That said, the congruence of the Captain Ford factors is not something I can overlook.

That's retarded. Either it's valid or it's not. Using it against me only is complete bullshit. If it's valid against me, then it's valid against everyone, especially after I flip town and the statements I made about it are proven reliable.

You brought it up, and now you're being wishy-washy about using it. Why? You've stated unequivocally that you think it's reliable. So why now are your advocating against using it? That's bullshit of the highest degree.

Votes after this one did not count.

Not only did Ford make the tie, but he did it 30 minutes prior to the deadline.  If that's not a scum move, I don't know what is.  Minor FoS goes out to Zombie Urist for not breaking it.

Like I knew that. The last reference I had (the votecount I linked) indicated we had one more day.

The best reason for scum to pick Tolyk? It denies the town an informative lynch. It's why you still want to lynch me. You don't have any more information now than you did yesterday.

Freudian slip- he knows his lynch would be informative.

I would hope that lynching the most active player in the game would be more informative than lynching someone who never did anything.

You're seriously retarded if you think that was unintentional.

[zombie urist]

Toaster: I would, but I have an essay to write.

Yo,OBOLISK. I prefer you not use expletives in waiting for shit you didn't ask for. Especially when your posting rate is as low as crap, capisce?
If you're just using expletives for the heck of it, don't even dare. Especially if you can't get my username right.
I just posted it, by the way. Up there. Like, here.
Did my mention of your name agitate you?
...
Reluctance = siding with lurkers.
Ew.
How am I even reluctant there? I'm just stating a common thought. If lurkers are scum, they're pretty bad and cowardly players - it is a tactic though, but one frowned on, especially here where lurking translates to utter laziness as scum have no quicktopic.
...
Who else knows about kills but scum, hmm?

1. Thats such a trivial thing to get upset about.
2. How did you imply "reluctance = siding with lurkers" from his posts?
3. Everyone knows about kills because they're announced in thread.

[zombie urist]

I agree with Ford on that last point, though I would have to add that everyone's lynch would be informative. I don't see how thats a slip.

Mod: please include the day end time in each votecount.

[Tiruin]

1. Thats such a trivial thing to get upset about.

Not upset. I was irritated at how my impression of obolisk changed right there.

On another note, it's a matter of personal ethics. Back here, the fact that it came out of nowhere sounded like I affected him by just stating his name. It also came from seeing obolisk's posts and seeing how he viewed mine.

2. How did you imply "reluctance = siding with lurkers" from his posts?
3. Everyone knows about kills because they're announced in thread.

@2:

[...]I'm beginning to think your reluctance on this point is because you're on the same team as at least one of the lurkers.

Like that.

And on the kills, I meant the targeting. What I got from what NQT said was the fact that he mentioned 'kills' in his wording and not anything else here.


Ford

Toaster:

Concerning metagaming:  I'm not afraid to look for a way to break the game (See: Politibastard) but the chance to look at the game this way hasn't ever come up before.  I'm not going to pass up this opportunity when it comes up, but I'm also not going to advocate any form of chain lynching over it.  That said, the congruence of the Captain Ford factors is not something I can overlook.

That's retarded. Either it's valid or it's not. Using it against me only is complete bullshit. If it's valid against me, then it's valid against everyone, especially after I flip town and the statements I made about it are proven reliable.

You brought it up, and now you're being wishy-washy about using it. Why? You've stated unequivocally that you think it's reliable. So why now are your advocating against using it? That's bullshit of the highest degree.

Woah, jumpy there.

He didn't explicitly mention that it referred to you.

The best reason for scum to pick Tolyk? It denies the town an informative lynch. It's why you still want to lynch me. You don't have any more information now than you did yesterday.

Freudian slip- he knows his lynch would be informative.

I would hope that lynching the most active player in the game would be more informative than lynching someone who never did anything.

You're seriously retarded if you think that was unintentional.

So you want to undermine his post by putting biased insults over it?

Also, whats the difference of the lynch anyway? Are you getting information solely by the flips, or getting it from the information gained behind the flips and trying to connect it with who-is-with-who?

Also, why the jumpiness and hostility?

[notquitethere]

Regarding Ford
So team town in on track to lynch Ford, possibly or possibly not with collusion from scum. Following my earlier argument that we should look at lynch votes, I did, and here's what my findings are on Ford:

Correct me if I've miscounted but he has the widest range of people that have voted for him and that he had voted for. This means he's least likely to be a mason (who we'd expect to have a narrower range of serious attackers and targets), most likely to be a normal townsperson and medium likely to be scum. That's my read. I don't want to bandwagon on someone that isn't more than 50% scummy in my eyes.

What's the theory on info-lynching: do people think it's ever a good idea? We're in such a majority here as town that we can afford up to five mislynches providing scum continue to be conservative with their powers. Someone had to die at the end of each week and it's always better that we decide rather than letting a draw give scum the pick. I argued earlier that getting rid of the non-participating players would be in our best interest as it would give us a clearer vote majority over the scum. However, lynching active players does give us more information. So what's the consensus on killing probable friends?

[obolisk0430]

Off
@tiruin: Sorry about getting your name wrong, but i don't see how that post explains your logic behind town looking for masons.  Town has no incentive to find them, so it's a waste of time.  Beyond that, if we actually find the masons, we basically do the mafia's job for them.

[Toaster]

Ford:

That's retarded. Either it's valid or it's not. Using it against me only is complete bullshit.

Why don't you try reading my posts?

Captain Ford fits both those criteria.

That said, the congruence of the Captain Ford factors is not something I can overlook.

In addition, look at this:

Votes after this one did not count.

Not only did Ford make the tie, but he did it 30 minutes prior to the deadline.  If that's not a scum move, I don't know what is.  Minor FoS goes out to Zombie Urist for not breaking it.

I'm seeing you lynched because of multiple factors that I've already stated.  I don't want to use online status as the sole factor in a lynch, but since you have so much going for you, you get my vote.


NQT:

Regarding Ford
So team town in on track to lynch Ford, possibly or possibly not with collusion from scum.

This feels scummy to me- it's vague and nonspecific, but it's like you're trying to be the cheerleader for Team Town.  I don't know, but it bugs me.

Correct me if I've miscounted but he has the widest range of people that have voted for him and that he had voted for. This means he's least likely to be a mason (who we'd expect to have a narrower range of serious attackers and targets), most likely to be a normal townsperson and medium likely to be scum. That's my read. I don't want to bandwagon on someone that isn't more than 50% scummy in my eyes.

Are you putting equal weight to all votes?  RVs should matter little, pressure votes some, and lynch votes a lot.

How scummy is Ford?  Who is the highest percentage scummy person to you right now?

What's the theory on info-lynching: do people think it's ever a good idea? We're in such a majority here as town that we can afford up to five mislynches providing scum continue to be conservative with their powers. Someone had to die at the end of each week and it's always better that we decide rather than letting a draw give scum the pick. I argued earlier that getting rid of the non-participating players would be in our best interest as it would give us a clearer vote majority over the scum. However, lynching active players does give us more information. So what's the consensus on killing probable friends?

I'm going to break this into two questions.

What's the theory on info-lynching: do people think it's ever a good idea?

Sometimes.  Given the lack of a nightkill, this game is a good candidate, as we're likely to see many more lynches than a comparable game this size.  However, doing it willy-nilly is a terrible idea.  I'd say rather than just do an "info lynch", in a situation like this when a obviously good candidate for lynch comes up, go for it.  If the game gets closer to LYLO, though, go back to standard scum-hunting.

So what's the consensus on killing probable friends?

Why would you ever do this?  If someone is likely town, why lynch them ever?


Tiruin:  Missed a question in this post.

Hey, what about we proclaim more activity by gambling eh?

What was the point of this post?  I don't see one.

[Leafsnail]

Votecount (6 votes to lynch):
Dariush:
Tiruin:
Phantom of The Library: notquitethere (1)
Captain Ford: Toaster, Dariush, Deathsword, Tiruin (4) <-- L-2
Edosurist:
Deathsword: obolisk0430 (1)
notquitethere: zombie urist (1)
zombie urist: Captain Ford (1)
Toaster:
obolisk0430:

Not voting: Edosurist, Phantom of the Library (2)

Deadline: 12:52:14 am GMT on the 9th of February.